Value of defense

[New Lightning]

I don't agree with those that say defense is not a viable strategy in this year game. Will you be able to totally prevent scoring, obviously not. But a look back to 2014 and where defense could be readily effective in delaying the offensive robot from scoring. Secondly whether or not there will be two robots in the courtyard zone at the same time both ready to shoot and in need of defending seems like a less than often occurrence. And even then simply delaying the shots long enough to where the other alliance can't score 8 boulders and preventing them from weakening the tower, there by preventing a capture, seems to be a very viable strategy.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by New Lightning

I don't agree with those that say defense is not a viable strategy in this year game. Will you be able to totally prevent scoring, obviously not. But a look back to 2014 and where defense could be readily effective in delaying the offensive robot from scoring. Secondly whether or not there will be two robots in the courtyard zone at the same time both ready to shoot and in need of defending seems like a less than often occurrence. And even then simply delaying the shots long enough to where the other alliance can't score 8 boulders and preventing them from weakening the tower, there by preventing a capture, seems to be a very viable strategy.

So, are you going to defend the castle or the outer works? Maybe both? (requires two defensive bots) If your opponent is using all three bots to weaken tower / damage defenses, which alliance is more likely to get the extra QP?

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by JesseK

After walking around AutoDesk's CAD'ed field last night I came to a striking conclusion about the outer works. I bet the zone for effective offense is at least 6-12" away from the outer works. The defending drivers cannot see the rear bumper of an offensive robot , and therefore are really unable to estimate whether the bumper is over the outer works or not. This is huge. I bet it will cause a LOT of penalties in early weeks.

Not as many as you think, remember the defender bot has its drive team looking right at it, and can see pretty easily if they are in the protected zone or not, just like the refs can, especially since most teams are hinting at staying small this year.

[New Lightning]

Originally Posted by martin417

So, are you going to defend the castle or the outer works? Maybe both? (requires two defensive bots) If your opponent is using all three bots to weaken tower / damage defenses, which alliance is more likely to get the extra QP?

If you play defense then you focus on defending inside the courtyard. Because, like I said, I have doubts that there will be two teams at the say time ready to shoot, so you focus on the team ready to shoot. And after the give up and go to the low goal, or they get around you and shoot, then you go after the other team that has now entered the zone and defend against them.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by New Lightning

If you play defense then you focus on defending inside the courtyard. Because, like I said, I have doubts that there will be two teams at the say time ready to shoot, so you focus on the team ready to shoot. And after the give up and go to the low goal, or they get around you and shoot, then you go after the other team that has now entered the zone and defend against them.

with three robots trying to score, the odds are pretty good that there will be two bots trying to score at the same time. And remember. the low goal is just as valuable as the high goal for obtaining the extra QP, and if you are busy defending instead of scoring, the the extra three points for the high goal don't matter much anyway.

[steve3408]

Defense is not necessarily the best strategy because its usefulness will vary from match to match. Any robot this year is capable to play defense, so if defense is your primary strategy, you are not very likely to get picked by a top team in a first round competition. Also, as you move further along in the season, other teams will want your robot to be used to gain more points. Defense is tricky this year because it is a goal over 6 feet and a robot that is 54". This means that the offense will have to shoot over you to score and you can't extend upwards to block the shot, giving you a comparative disadvantage. Lastly, defense this year will be based primarily on blocking and moving against other robots so you will need a robust bot to prevent any damages. This increases weight and limits your ability to do other tasks well.

[Abhishek R]

There's not a lot of space in the neutral zone. A single robot can effectively lock up an opposing team that is trying to breach defenses or make it to your courtyard if they play it correctly. If you can trade one of your less offensively equipped robots for one of theirs, why not?

Very rarely, if ever, is there a situation where the decision to play or not play defense is so black and white. The closest thing to that ever happening is when FIRST stuck a wall in the middle of the field separating the alliances and literally said you cannot cross it.

[New Lightning]

Originally Posted by martin417

with three robots trying to score, the odds are pretty good that there will be two bots trying to score at the same time. And remember. the low goal is just as valuable as the high goal for obtaining the extra QP, and if you are busy defending instead of scoring, the the extra three points for the high goal don't matter much anyway.

But see I have doubts that your going to have two robots in scoring position at the same time, let alone three. And if there are three trying to score on your tower, then your other two alliance partners have a clear run at the outer works and tower of your opponent. And then when it comes time for your to capture your opponents tower then you make your move through your secret passage, cross the easiest defense for you and capture that tower.

[VacioArconte]

Whether or not defense is important this year comes down to which alliance would win:

1. An alliance with three shooters
2. An alliance with two shooters and a defender

Since between three robots, a breach is very likely to occur in most matches (although speed is a different matter), if a defender can at least slow down the shooting cycle of all three bots, those three bots will probably be outscored by two undefended shooters.

I think that defense is especially important this year because it's so difficult for drivers to line up their shots, given the limited visibility, while defenders have a clear view of what they are defending.

I'm sure that there will be a different value to defense at different levels of competition. A defender at an early regional or district event might prevent 100% of tower-scored points, while a defender at a late regional or champs may not be able to keep up with the offensive pressure of multiple scorers.

Either way, we'll find out in six weeks!

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

Not as many as you think, remember the defender bot has its drive team looking right at it, and can see pretty easily if they are in the protected zone or not, just like the refs can, especially since most teams are hinting at staying small this year.

Right, but the thought is, at least for the teams next to the castle, parallax will give the offensive robot another 6" or so to play with. Very similar to 2011, but at least in 2011 there was another line of tape to use as an indication of location.

[ahartnet]

I think a key thing everyone here is missing is that the defender may not be focusing so much on blocking shots or messing up a robot trying to shot but preventing boulder pickup from the secret passage.

The team update made it very clear the rule is designed such that trying to get a boulder from the secret passage is going to be dangerous if there's an opposing robot over there. If there's not then if you have two boulder scoring robots you can pretty well guarantee a selection of boulders to choose from without leaving the enemy courtyard.

[Josh Goodman]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

There's not a lot of space in the neutral zone. A single robot can effectively lock up an opposing team trying to breach defenses or make it your courtyard if they play it correctly. If you can trade one of your less offensively equipped robots for one of theirs, why not?

Originally Posted by ahartnet

I think a key thing everyone here is missing is that the defender may not be focusing so much on blocking shots or messing up a robot trying to shot but preventing boulder pickup from the secret passage.

These are the reasons defense is played. When there is an offensive mismatch. This particularly comes into play when one robot is significantly stronger than any contender on the opposite alliance. Yes, you definitely want to get that RP in -- win or lose...but why have 1 when you can have 3?

If two of your robots are better at doing what two robots on the other side of the field are doing, you want to try to neutralize that 3rd robot's attack the best you possibly can.

[Rangel]

The big safe zone that is the outerworks leads me to believe that defense will only be very effective with low/high goal shooters that have to shoot from up close, tall blockers, and potentially ball starvation. I don't think stopping breaches will be very effective simply because a team can just drive on the edge of their opponents outerworks(with bumper inside the volume of the outerworks) to get to whatever defense they want to clear next. In that situation, the defender has no real option but to get out of the way or take a foul. Shooters that line up with the edge of the outerworks too are also protected and can only really be blocked by a tall robot if they themselves are short. I could be wrong but that's how I foresee defense this game.

[MrJohnston]

I could see defense being valid for several situations... Consider: If you have three high-scoring shooters on your team, it is very likely that they will not have enough boulders to keep themselves busy - at least not without trying to grab one from the opponent's secret passage.

So:
* The third bot might as well consider playing defense (unless it can damage more defenses). The first two can likely handle all teh scoring.

* A bot for the team without the shooters might consider tripping up the shooters - or at least make it difficult for them to grab boulders from the secret passage without incurring a tech.

[kenfox]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

a team can just drive on the edge of their opponents outerworks(with bumper inside the volume of the outerworks) to get to whatever defense they want to clear next

There are 2 foot high polycarb barriers, aka shields, extending to the edge of the outer works between each defense. It appears to me that a robot must move completely off the outer works in order to change position on the outer works.

A robot should be able to effectively defend shooting, especially short shooters, if the mid-field defenses are difficult to cross.

Whether that's cost effective I think will mainly depend on boulder availability and cycle times--stopping the 8th shot is worth a lot more than stopping the 9th.