High Goal Vs. Low Goal

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty

So, if even if missed shots increase cycle time 50%, high goal still gets you more points. Missed shots would need to more than double your cycle time in order for low goal to be better. That judgement is hard to make at this point.

I would say it takes about as much time to pick up a missed ball, return to your shooting spot, aim, and fire again as it does to take another shot. 50% is optimistic. Not to mention that it probably takes more time to line up a high goal shot than it does to jam a low goal ball in.

[team-4480]

For me, these are the pros and cons of low goal:

Pros:
-Easy to build for
-Pretty much guaranteed points if you can get past the defensive robot
-Most mechanisms won't take up too much space on the robot(more room for lifter)
-Weakens the Tower at same pace as high goal
-Much less stressful design if you have limited resources

Cons:
-Have to get past the defensive robot
-Not as cool as having something that shoots
-3 points less per MADE shot

[nandeeka]

Originally Posted by team-4480

-Have to get past the defensive robot

It seems to me like this is should be a pro for low goal. The defense bot can only defend one goal at a time and so it will be easier to go up to a free goal. With the high goal, it is much more likely that the robot will get hit as it lines up to shoot.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by nandeeka

With the high goal, it is much more likely that the robot will get hit as it lines up to shoot.

If the Robot can shoot from the Outer works, it is protected from contact.

[Bryce2471]

Originally Posted by rich2202

If the Robot can shoot from the Outer works, it is protected from contact.

Correction: It is protected from "interference."

G43 ROBOTS on the same half of the FIELD as their ALLIANCE TOWER may not interfere with
opponent ROBOTS attempting to traverse OUTER WORKS (regardless of direction). A ROBOT is
considered traversing the opponent’s OUTER WORKS if any part of its BUMPERS are within the
opponent’s OUTER WORKS.
Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, FOUL

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by rich2202

If the Robot can shoot from the Outer works, it is protected from contact.

At a high level of play, this definitely matters. For most FRC teams, hitting a target that small from that distance with any kind of consistency will be a serious challenge, and far too many teams will spend far too much time failing at it, rather than designing around the low goal.

(In my experience, extrapolated to this season. I'll be delighted to be wrong.)

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by rich2202

If the Robot can shoot from the Outer works, it is protected from contact.

Illegal
G39
G40
ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER

[Sunshine]

Low goal shooting gets you to the eliminations but you lose when you get there.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by mac

In this game you have unlimited amount of balls to score. There is no ceiling on scoring. Thank You Mentor Mac

There's a ceiling, it's just not a hard ceiling. There will be no alliance that will score more than 40 high goals in a match. Also, there will be no single robot that will score more than 20 high goals in a match.

[jdaming]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Illegal
G39
G40
ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER

I don't understand. The have been many discussions about how a robot can be fully in compliance with what you quoted above and have their bumper still in the outer works and be protected while shooting. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you saying there is no protected space?

Your quote is exactly why it is legal, and protected space, all you have to do is contact courtyard carpet to launch a ball.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Illegal
G39
G40
ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER

Bold and violet for emphasis.

Legal

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by mac

I predict 8 high shots made by 2 robots in 25 seconds. The great teams. The teams I know and the teams I've seen. This to me is very doable. Both of these robots will be low bar speedster. God Bless Mentor Mac.

6.25 seconds / shot / robot? Yeah, suuuuuuuure. Good luck with that.
More realistically, very great cycle times will exist around 15-20 seconds.

Originally Posted by PowerfulKitty

So, if even if missed shots increase cycle time 50%, high goal still gets you more points. Missed shots would need to more than double your cycle time in order for low goal to be better. That judgement is hard to make at this point.

Nope. You have to factor in points from crossing a defense. If I can low goal in 14 seconds (7pts) and only high goal in 20 sec (10pts), there is no difference in my scoring rate. (both = .5 pts / sec). It's gunna take time to line up your shot and/or collect the ball if you miss.

Originally Posted by rich2202

If the Robot can shoot from the Outer works, it is protected from contact.

You better be 4'6" tall, or you're gunna have visions of 2013 cross-court shooter defense dancing in your head.

[Sunshine]

I think that most people forget that there are 6 balls on the field at beginning of play and that there are always 6 balls on the field.

[Sunshine]

To continue my thought process........
I believe that FIRST has designed a game with the potential for high scoring. And they heard people say they wanted robot interaction along with defense. But they developed a game with limited defense with harsh penalties associated with where you play defense. The updates continue to make defense even more difficult.

In years past they had games where a rookie team with limited resources would end up being a defensive bot (that potential is still there obviously) but those same bots can be very active helping to weaken the defenses. And those same bots can be involved in the end game this year. So, theoretically a team with limited resources can be very involved with power ranking points. (RP points)

The low hanging fruit is very inviting and everyone can be a major contributor on scoring.

[Boltman]

Its fairly simple:

High Goal can if done right INCREASE POINTS and DECREASE CYCLE TIMES and DEFENSIVE ISSUES.

Low goal is POTENTIALLY EASIER and MORE RELIABLE but INCREASES CYCLE TIMES and INVITES DEFENSIVE ISSUES

Now in Weeks 1 and 2 I feel a good low goal bot could make the Elims and even be on winning alliance.... however in Worlds they will not have much impact.