High Goal Vs. Low Goal

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

6.25 seconds / shot / robot? Yeah, suuuuuuuure. Good luck with that.
More realistically, very great cycle times will exist around 15-20 seconds.



Nope. You have to factor in points from crossing a defense. If I can low goal in 14 seconds (7pts) and only high goal in 20 sec (10pts), there is no difference in my scoring rate. (both = .5 pts / sec). It's gunna take time to line up your shot and/or collect the ball if you miss.



You better be 4'6" tall, or you're gunna have visions of 2013 cross-court shooter defense dancing in your head.

As for 4'6" tall..not necessarily a limbo bot high power shooter can shoot this year from the furthest reaches of the courtyard of the opponent... I saw it. As for reliability well that needs to be seen.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Its fairly simple:

High Goal can if done right INCREASE POINTS and DECREASE CYCLE TIMES and DEFENSIVE ISSUES.

Low goal is POTENTIALLY EASIER and MORE RELIABLE but INCREASES CYCLE TIMES and INVITES DEFENSIVE ISSUES

Now in Weeks 1 and 2 I feel a good low goal bot could make the Elims and even be on winning alliance.... however in Worlds they will not have much impact.

Scenario: You're picking on Carver and you already have two high-goalers. For your second pick, are you picking a mediocre high-goaler that can only cross the rock wall and rough terrain, a pushy low-goaler that can cross everything, or a pushy defender that can cross anything but can't handle balls?

[Sunshine]

If I have two high-goalers I will look for a scaler that can deliver boulders and weaken defenses. I will assume this bot can play defense if needed.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Scenario: You're picking on Carver and you already have two high-goalers. For your second pick, are you picking a mediocre high-goaler that can only cross the rock wall and rough terrain, a pushy low-goaler that can cross everything, or a pushy defender that can cross anything but can't handle balls?

Pretty sure in Worlds this is the way it'll go. Its the race to 16 scoring plays + Scale x 3.

Captain can do it all probably the best HG shooter of the Alliance and can at will destroy any Defense and Scale (That's how they got captain) ..however they need help as time is a factor and cycle times are longer (One Boulder, multiple crosses slow cycles down) has every time cross+HG auto

2nd Pick will likely be a Scaler and can cross Defenses (Defense destroy Specialist very fast at doing so) as the cycle time to destroy a defense is slightly > the cycle time for acquiring boulder then cross in HG. Both the castle and the defenses require 8 Hit points EACH to get the RP or high value points. This bot may also play defense when done destroying. Has cross auto.

Third pick will likely be a Scaler* and not be as good at HG shot/defense destroy but is unique somehow (*perhaps a cheesecaked scaler) and very fast and can deliver boulders to enemy courtyard fairly quickly (maybe limbo bot) to Captain to help decrease avg HG cycle time and provide some defense harassing if needed. Has cross auto.


You almost have to divide and conquer this game three ways.... winning alliances will BREACH (8HP), CAPTURE(8HP) and SCALE(x3) in 150 seconds and dividing this task will be necessary as there are only 135 seconds in teleop.... to accomplish 12ish hit point tasks + Driving to batter AND climbing in last 20 seconds

So lets scenario this out:

Best case scenario IMO:

Auto 3 HP on defense + 3 HP on castle (Not likely...so lets go 4 Hit points...three crosses + 1 HG average )

Teleop: That leaves 12 HP left for Teleop typically at high levels of play

135 seconds / 12 = 11.25 avg seconds to either acquire and score a boulder + typically a defense cross or cross a defense in essence four times. Impossible with one bot and unlikely with two, possible with three all contributing.

With average cycle times to either (ACQUIRE BOULDER+CROSS+HG) or (CROSS+CROSS+CROSS) being in the average of 20-30 seconds there is not much room for missed shots or a harassing defensive bot to accomplish 12ish separate scoring plays.

So unless you specialize and divide and conquer there is no way to win the worlds. Simply not enough time in the game its going to take ALL THREE robots to allow for imperfect game play wasted time and potential defense issues from other alliance. Just like last year... 2 GREAT and 1 Decent < 3 ALMOST GREAT

Low goal ? Nah... better to cross and dump off to automatic HG shooter (2.5 times better per cycle) + play some good defense (- 5 pts for opponent)

[pfreivald]

At the highest levels of play methinks the calculus is quite simple--if you can build a robot that can consistently defeat at least one class of defense and then consistently and quickly shoot high goal shots from 4'6" up and with its bumpers over the Outer Works, then that's what you build and you go on to win most of the events you participate in.

If you can't, then you scale back your expectations and build the best robot you can that *can* score consistently and quickly, somehow, from somewhere.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

If I have two high-goalers I will look for a scaler that can deliver boulders and weaken defenses. I will assume this bot can play defense if needed.

Congratulations, you've declared that a low-goal robot will have an impact on your Worlds Elim selection.

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by mac

I predict 8 high shots made by 2 robots in 25 seconds. The great teams. The teams I know and the teams I've seen. This to me is very doable. Both of these robots will be low bar speedster. God Bless Mentor Mac.

So you're predicting 6 seconds on average to travel to a boulder (which may be across both sets of outer works) travel back to the opponent's courtyard (which again may be across both sets of outer works) line up for a shot and score while avoiding a defensive robot.

OK then.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Its fairly simple:

High Goal can if done right INCREASE POINTS and DECREASE CYCLE TIMES and DEFENSIVE ISSUES.

How does the high goal decrease cycle times? Driving six more feet forward is faster than aiming at a relatively tiny target, not to mention the odds of missing go up significantly.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

6.25 seconds / shot / robot? Yeah, suuuuuuuure. Good luck with that.
More realistically, very great cycle times will exist around 15-20 seconds.



Nope. You have to factor in points from crossing a defense. If I can low goal in 14 seconds (7pts) and only high goal in 20 sec (10pts), there is no difference in my scoring rate. (both = .5 pts / sec). It's gunna take time to line up your shot and/or collect the ball if you miss.



You better be 4'6" tall, or you're gunna have visions of 2013 cross-court shooter defense dancing in your head.

Could we get a side bet going? I'm not even counting on a feeder robot to a shooter robot. I note your math. I've had some good feelings in the past about speed and scoring. I feel your under estimating the teams. This counts on no defensive play on those 2 robots. The robot that picks up the ball from the safety zone will not have to wait. I think a 25 foot range shot can be met. I really think a robot can clear the low bar in 3 to 4 seconds. Let's try to stay in touch on this one. Please. Mentor Mac God Bless

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does the high goal decrease cycle times? Driving six more feet forward is faster than aiming at a relatively tiny target, not to mention the odds of missing go up significantly.

Top HG shooters will be automatic and perfect once they cross into the opponents courtyard with a boulder... a fairly quick play... Either Midline acquire+ cross+HG Or SP acquire + Low Bar + HG OR Coutyard acquire + HG if other bot deleivers.

That is faster slightly than crossing different defenses on average.

TO destroy a defense and be on right side (opponents courtyard) at 20 second endgame it FOUR crossings per defense.
TO shoot a HG its One acquire action, One cross and One shot and if delivered Two actions OR worst case ...Cross back + acquire + cross + shoot = 4 actions

Time wise (each action)...
Cross=Cross
HG Shot << Cross
Acquire <= Cross


Time wise self contained scoring (HG versus Defense destroy) .... THREE actions < Four Actions

[Anthony Galea]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Congratulations, you've declared that a low-goal robot will have an impact on your Worlds Elim selection.

To be fair, there will be a sizable amount of high goal scorers that can also score in the low goal. Another thing, what's to say that a feeder bot HAS to be able to score in the low goal? Maybe they have a simple pickup that just releases when they get into the courtyard?

I feel like most people in this thread are overvaluing the low goal, when really, the high goal is where the points are. But really, what it comes down to is what your team wants to accomplish.

If I'm a captain at the World Championship, and I'm a high goal scorer, you better believe I want three more high goal capable robots in case one of the shooters goes down for any reason. In the 2nd/3rd round pick, I would look more for robots that can quickly feed while still having the high goal capability, but I don't want to be restricted to the low goal while [powerhouse team] is draining high goal after high goal, and 2 high goals from them in less than 30 seconds is equivalent to 5 low goals in 1:00-1:15.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Congratulations, you've declared that a low-goal robot will have an impact on your Worlds Elim selection.

90% of all robots can score low goal in some form. There's no uniqueness in your robot or analogy

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

90% of all robots can score low goal in some form.

That number is pretty optimistic. I'd wager that >10% of robots won't be able to consistently cross a single defense in order to get to the low goal, much less put a boulder into it.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but in 2012, every robot on Einstein missed shots on the high goal, from a protected zone much closer than the protected zone available this year. They also didn't line up the shot instantly. 1114 took like 3 seconds to line up their shots. I don't think perfection and instant aiming is something it's reasonable to expect from high goal shooters this year. I especially don't think it's something to expect when you get down to 3rd pick. So again, do you want a mediocre or worse high-goaler, or an above average low-goaler?

[ajhbrown]

Originally Posted by martin417

In my opinion, a good high goal shooter could score more quickly than a low goal scorer. Why? There is a center high goal, so the shot could be made as soon as the robot clears the defense, whereas to score a low goal, the robot must maneuver around to the side of the tower and approach pretty close to the tower to score.

This is partly true. You will remember that if you want to breach the field, you are going to have to go through different defenses in different areas causing you to move to a shooting position anyways. Shooting a high goal will score you more points, but on the same token, low goals may have a lower percentage of missing. Calculating the accuracy in the high and low goals is key in deciding this. It may take a lot of practice until you fully decide in which goal you decide to shoot for.