High Goal Vs. Low Goal

[rich2202]

When you still need to damage defenses, minimizing cycle time is important, so shooting low goal minimizes the variance (if you miss the high goal, your cycle time goes way up).

That said, there are only 2 low goals, so if they are occupied, then to take a shot instead of waiting around.

Once you have breached the defenses, a high goal is worth 2.5 times a low goal. If you can make 50% of your shots, it makes sense to shoot high to maximize the average number of points for a given amount of time. If your cycle time goes up by 30% (to account for missed shots), that is still a net benefit for 2.5 times more points.

[JABianchi]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but in 2012, every robot on Einstein missed shots on the high goal, from a protected zone much closer than the protected zone available this year. They also didn't line up the shot instantly. 1114 took like 3 seconds to line up their shots. I don't think perfection and instant aiming is something it's reasonable to expect from high goal shooters this year. I especially don't think it's something to expect when you get down to 3rd pick. So again, do you want a mediocre or worse high-goaler, or an above average low-goaler?

I think this is an excellent comparison. Here are some more contrasts between Rebound Rumble & Stronghold:

• Foam Ball (7" basketball v 10" boulder)
• Round-ish Goals (18" wide hoop v 16" wide castle opening)
• Safezone for shooting (12' away key v. 16' away outerworks)
• High goals (7'2" high hoop v. 7'1" high tower goal)
• Ball Limit (3 basketballs v. 1 boulder)

Even with 2 amazing high goals scorers, there was certainly a need for 180's Defensive, Ball-Control, End-Game Specialist robot on the winning alliance.

The big advantage Stronghold has for a HighGoal shooter is the orientation of the goal (vertical v horizontal). But even on Einstein in 2006's Aim High, you still see missed shots on a humongous goal.

(Is Team 25 destined for Einstein again in another year of the foam ball? )

I'm very interested to see how the optimal strategy for playing Stronghold changes from week to week. Factoring in the 3 point bonus for a high goal shot AND the 25 point playoff bonus for capturing the tower, what percentage of HG shots do you need to make in order to make it worth your while? How will that question be answered differently in week 1 vs. week 8?

[Alex2614]

I know in 2014, we won SMR without our alliance shooting a single high goal in elims, even though our opponents were shooting high goals. Never underestimate the value of the low goal!

[IronicDeadBird]

Man I can't find enough evidence for either goal to make one more valuable then the other. Looks like its back to flipping coins for strategy choices.
My two cents are that you want to take high shots from spy box side/outer works and low goals secret passage side opponents secret passage. That way the it just turns into fish/kite city.

[Carlson V]

I don't know if this was brought up earlier in the thread, but IMO the best strategy for the high goal would be to only go under the low bar, maybe have the capability to go over some of the other drive train stuff, but end up in one of the the corners on the same plane as the stronghold. Then using the corner to line up your robot, shoot the boulder in. Go back under the low bar straight to the secret passage way and pick up another ball. Rinse and repeat.

[Carlson V]

Originally Posted by rich2202

When you still need to damage defenses, minimizing cycle time is important, so shooting low goal minimizes the variance (if you miss the high goal, your cycle time goes way up).

That said, there are only 2 low goals, so if they are occupied, then to take a shot instead of waiting around.

Once you have breached the defenses, a high goal is worth 2.5 times a low goal. If you can make 50% of your shots, it makes sense to shoot high to maximize the average number of points for a given amount of time. If your cycle time goes up by 30% (to account for missed shots), that is still a net benefit for 2.5 times more points.

You have a good point about the cycle time, but something to take into account is the levels taken of the tower. Whether it's high or low you get a level taken off. which counts for something if you only make half of your goals in the high, or all of them in the low.

[MrJohnston]

This is quite the discussion... Really, it's all going to come down to
1) What your team is capable of doing?
2) For what strategy are you optimizing your robot?

High Goal Advantages:
* With three available goals, it is possible to score from anywhere in the courtyard.
* Each shot is worth more than double the points (not including capturing the tower).

Low Goal Advantages:
* It is more likely that you can use your acquiring mechanism to make the shot - instead of needing an additional manipulator.
* A driver can basically drive up and put the boulder in the goals for easy high accuracy


A team capable of hitting long distance shots into the high goals 50% of the time is better off shooting into the high goal if the plan is to cycle and other the flow of the match allows for a constant cycle of boulders.... However, in a slower paced game (especially if your allies and opponents both struggle with making shots) as, in order to create a capture, a robot will not be able to afford to miss and it might make sense to focus on the low goal... In higher level games, it is almost certain that boulders will almost exclusively be aimed at the high goal...

For design plans, if you are planning to make scoring boulders a primary of your robot's role in the game, high goal scoring seems like a must so long as your team is able to make an effective high goal shooter - most likely this would have to include strong vision tracking and a consistent shooter that has enough pop to hit the mark from several locations on in the courtyard.... A team not able to create an accurate high-goal shooter would be far better off putting boulders in the low goal.

[Dibit1010]

Because we have our vision code up and running using the high goal is the plan. However, our ball intake can be reversed if we get into a jam and have to make low goals

[Monochron]

I'm currently thinking that focusing on high goals is going to be important at the higher levels of play. I think that many regionals will see very competitive low goal scoring robots, but the tipping point will be robots that can score high goals nearly as fast as they can score low goals. I think those robots are going to be pretty rare, but that there is a real potential to decrease cycle time by not having to drive up to the tower to score each time.

[pandamonium]

I have put quite a bit of time since kick off contemplating this question. Obviously it depends on each teams resources and the evolution of game play. One thing that I have not yet heard people talk about is what happens to missed shots. The defending robot not being able to launch them really effects game state. That paired with the final 20 seconds being defense free is interesting. So I think that High goal is better for autonomous and endgame reasons. I am going to make a prediction and say that no alliance will win a regional or district championship without scoring at least 1 high goal shot.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

One thing that I have not yet heard people talk about is what happens to missed shots. The defending robot not being able to launch them really effects game state.

The defending bot pushes the boulder to the Secret Passage. The other alliance won't risk the foul by going after a boulder in the SP with a defending bot nearby.

The defending bot gets control of the boulder.

The defending bot pushes the boulder down the secret passage towards the neutral zone where an alliance member can get the boulder.

If there are no other shooting robots, the defending bot can take it all the way to the other courtyard and leave it there, or score it.