Spark Motor Controller vs. Victor SP

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

The SPARK is lighter (although the wire vs no wire difference is probably why)

Paul is correct on this Greg. If you are not including the weight of the leads in your numbers then you are not accounting for the total operational mass. When the leads are factored in an apples to apples comparison, the Victor is actually lighter.

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

Paul is correct on this Greg. If you are not including the weight of the leads in your numbers then you are not accounting for the total operational mass. When the leads are factored in an apples to apples comparison, the Victor is actually lighter.

Well this is a silly debate to have, but here goes.

All motor controllers and everything else sold to FIRST teams is based on the unit weight, as it is impossible to figure out everything that attaches to it.

Does the Cross the Road published weight for the Power distribution board take into account all of the wires or the fuses that could be plugged into it? How about the VRM, Pneumatic module, etc? Also when the spec sheets were made for the victor 884/888 or talon SR or Jaguar what length of wire was included in the weight?

For that matter what gauge wire are we talking about, not every motor needs 12awg, so in situations where smaller gauge wire is used, it would change the unit weight.


To teams reading this: We do our best to provide the best documentation and information that we can. If there is something that you would like clarified or anything missing, please feel free to ask.

[Paul Copioli]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

Well this is a silly debate to have, but here goes.

All motor controllers and everything else sold to FIRST teams is based on the unit weight, as it is impossible to figure out everything that attaches to it.

Does the Cross the Road published weight for the Power distribution board take into account all of the wires or the fuses that could be plugged into it? How about the VRM, Pneumatic module, etc? Also when the spec sheets were made for the victor 884/888 or talon SR or Jaguar what length of wire was included in the weight?

For that matter what gauge wire are we talking about, not every motor needs 12awg, so in situations where smaller gauge wire is used, it would change the unit weight.


To teams reading this: We do our best to provide the best documentation and information that we can. If there is something that you would like clarified or anything missing, please feel free to ask.

Greg,

Why is this a silly debate? You have information on your web site that does not include key information. I can only guess that it is an oversight on your part. You know as well as I do that the apples to apples comparison is to compare either with, or without, wires.

We have done this on the VEXpro web site for our speed controllers. For those that are interested, here is the data:

Weight:
Victor SP w/o wires - .16 lbs
Wire weight - .07 lbs
Victor SP with wires - .23 lbs

To claim that your data in the table is not misleading potential customers is, well, misleading.

This is only my opinion, but I take issue with you stating the debate is silly because it is not. Some customers just take these tables at face value and you know it.

Paul

[Michael Corsetto]

Just another point for all those considering these two options.

Having the existing wire on the Victor SP is a nice time-saver if you plan out your electronics layout properly. You should be locating your speed controllers near the PDP regardless, and sending the existing Victor SP input wires straight to the PDP saves a lot of crimping and heatshrink time!

I'd like to share our experience:

We always wire our robots on the 3rd weekend of build season. It took us two full 12 hour days to do this in 2014 with the old Talon (pre-SRX). We saved a lot of time in 2015 using the Victor SP due to the pre-existing 10 gauge wire, it only took our electrical team a day and a half (8 hour days this time!) to wire two full robots. This is partly due to the saved time on not using fork crimps and heat shrink anymore. The new control system (roborio) helped as well.

We are building three robots this year. Wiring all three robots this weekend will be a challenge, but using Victor SP's exclusively will save us valuable time to accomplish our scheduled objectives!

Good luck everyone!

-Mike

Edit: How could I forget, we don't bother crimping our own PWM cables anymore, and we don't have to hot-glue the PWM cable into the speed controller anymore. The integrated PWM cable is another huge time saver for us!

[timytamy]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Having the existing wire on the Victor SP is a nice time-saver if you plan out your electronics layout properly. You should be locating your speed controllers near the PDP regardless, and sending the existing Victor SP input wires straight to the PDP saves a lot of crimping and heatshrink time!

This is what has affected our decisions the most too. For runs that are close enough to use the integrated wires, the SPs and SRXs are amazing. The damaging the integrated cables has not been anywhere near as bad as I feared, we haven't had to retire any of our controllers due to this yet!

The key advantages to the SPARK, are the cost and limit switches. I think with all the available motor controllers in the KoP, FIRST Choice and PDV. The lower resource teams should be able to get more than enough SPs, SPARKS and 888s. The SPARKs limit switch input is feature that is absolutely amazing in it's specific use case (actuators with end stops), especially for the price given the other option is a SRX.

Our team is using a combination of SPs and SRXs for the reasons above. I must say I'm not a big fan of having the long CAN cables on the SRXs, partley due to how small they are (and I love how small they are) we haven't found a nice solution to cable management without cutting significant lengths off (which we're against for obvious reasons).

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Just another point for all those considering these two options.

Having the existing wire on the Victor SP is a nice time-saver if you plan out your electronics layout properly. You should be locating your speed controllers near the PDP regardless, and sending the existing Victor SP input wires straight to the PDP saves a lot of crimping and heatshrink time!

I'd like to share our experience:

We always wire our robots on the 3rd weekend of build season. It took us two full 12 hour days to do this in 2014 with the old Talon (pre-SRX). We saved a lot of time in 2015 using the Victor SP due to the pre-existing 10 gauge wire, it only took our electrical team a day and a half (8 hour days this time!) to wire two full robots. This is partly due to the saved time on not using fork crimps and heat shrink anymore. The new control system (roborio) helped as well.

We are building three robots this year. Wiring all three robots this weekend will be a challenge, but using Victor SP's exclusively will save us valuable time to accomplish our scheduled objectives!

Good luck everyone!

-Mike

Edit: How could I forget, we don't bother crimping our own PWM cables anymore, and we don't have to hot-glue the PWM cable into the speed controller anymore. The integrated PWM cable is another huge time saver for us!

Do y'all use Anderson PowerPoles?

In a host of bad decisions last season, the one right thing I know I pushed for was establishing a stock of SRXs before the 2015 season and committing to the whole CAN system at the outset. We are able to crimp every single wire off the SRX with the powerpole connectors, making everyone's life easier. The 10-pin breakout and CAN monitoring on the whole system is insanely cool and I know we've only scratched the surface.

I'd say that if you are a team with the funds to justify it, move to the SPs or SRXs (I'd definitely say SRXs) for your competition robots. If you are a team that doesn't feel comfortable springing for them, make sure you exhaust available avenues for free motor controllers (You could haul in a LOT of free motor controllers this year if you wanted) I'd probably move to the Spark. Any kinds of projects we execute in the future would probably involve the adequately cleaned cheese ball jar filled with Talons and SRs first, but the Spark is a great value for anyone.

What is pretty apparent is that it's really hard to go wrong with motor controllers in FRC, a far cry from older days. I imagine trying to fit a Jaguar on a board now would feel like trying to cram a 1-bedroom apartment under the low bar. Motor controllers are probably the most obvious example of a lot of really great FRC mentors able to bring their industry experience and FIRST passion to a very captive audience. CTRE especially has earned every dollar they have gotten from us.

---

I really love motor controllers.

[timytamy]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Do y'all use Anderson PowerPoles?

Nope, well at least not all the time. We (and I suspect Mike) don't bother with adding any connectors in the inputs to the SPs/SRXs. When they're located close to the PDP then why bother! We do still use them on the output however.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by timytamy

Nope, well at least not all the time. We (and I suspect Mike) don't bother with adding any connectors in the inputs to the SPs/SRXs. When they're located close to the PDP then why bother! We do still use them on the output however.

Guess I should have been clearer; we don't crimp the input wires because they are 99/100 times right up at the PDP.

Also I just checked. As a rookie like OP is, they have access to

5 Victor SPs (2 in kit, 3 in PDV)
4 Victor 888s (FIRST Choice)
2 Sparks (FIRST Choice)

All donated by suppliers and included with registration.
That's nuts.

[Breadbocks]

Just to add my 2 cents here, I used the Victor SPs quite a bit and have found them incredibly nice to work with, and they are quite small. However, my biggest complaint about them is that their wires/PWMs are sealed in, which means if one of them gets ruined for whatever reason, the controller needs to be replaced, which is an unfortunate expense.

I bought a couple SPARKs over this past weekend and have been quite impressed with them, especially for the price. They're basically the same as the old Talons, but with the addition of the limit switch ports and $15 cheaper than any alternative motor controllers. They have around the same total footprint effectively as the Victor SPs, but the ability to change the wires is quite nice for cable management without having to worry over ruining the controllers. The added range in voltage is nice for extracurricular projects where you'd otherwise have to use the old Victor 884s or some other controller you don't have lying around the shop, but that probably doesn't matter much to a new team.

The biggest factor in my opinion is the price difference, especially for a new team. 25% off the bare minimum with no loss of functionality (unless you really value being waterproof) is pretty big when you're going to be shelling out for all the various things you need to get started.

[timytamy]

Originally Posted by Breadbocks

25% off the bare minimum with no loss of functionality (unless you really value being waterproof)

Woah there, if it's now waterproof you'll have difficulty crossing the mote

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Breadbocks

Just to add my 2 cents here, I used the Victor SPs quite a bit and have found them incredibly nice to work with, and they are quite small. However, my biggest complaint about them is that their wires/PWMs are sealed in, which means if one of them gets ruined for whatever reason, the controller needs to be replaced, which is an unfortunate expense.

Thank you for the feedback. We do here this argument often however to date we have had no reports of this actually happening. Which leads me to believe that this is not a problem at all.

But in the interests of teams I ask are there any teams that have had this issue?

If there are any teams that have Talon SRX's or Victor SP's that need the leads replaced send them back to us. We will gladly replace the leads. But again I just do not have any evidence that this is a REAL problem.[/quote]

Also,

Neither the Talon SRX of Victor SP are water tight so please do not expect survival after immersion in water.

[adciv]

Originally Posted by Breadbocks

However, my biggest complaint about them is that their wires/PWMs are sealed in, which means if one of them gets ruined for whatever reason, the controller needs to be replaced, which is an unfortunate expense.

I'd have to check the rules, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to open them up and resolder the wires.

[timytamy]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

Neither the Talon SRX of Victor SP are water tight so please do not expect survival after immersion in water.

Well, there goes our game strategy...

[Breadbocks]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

Thank you for the feedback. We do here this argument often however to date we have had no reports of this actually happening. Which leads me to believe that this is not a problem at all.

But in the interests of teams I ask are there any teams that have had this issue?

If there are any teams that have Talon SRX's or Victor SP's that need the leads replaced send them back to us. We will gladly replace the leads. But again I just do not have any evidence that this is a REAL problem.

Also,

Neither the Talon SRX of Victor SP are water tight so please do not expect survival after immersion in water.

I have not yet seen either a Talon SRX nor a Victor SP with leads shortened or damaged to the point of unusability, but years of being around the idiocy of teenagers and seeing old motors with layers of soldered on wire from being cut to a couple inches have given me my doubts.

It is quite nice to know that there's some amount of support for them, I will be sure to pass it on when that concern arises.

I apologize for the misinformation about the watertightness or lackthereof. I suppose that must have gotten mixed up in one of the various water game conspiracy theories.