Opinion Poll: Proliferation of Prefbricated Parts

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by RonnyV

Don't know what the real problem is here. Having a variety of COTS products (for less resourced teams that don't have machining capabilities) or having a grumpy 40 year old putting together a COTS kit with all the parts needed in two days and rush on.

The problem is that COTS can remove a motivator to understand how the parts are made. In fairness, in the other related topic, I voted for allowing COTS at every level.

This opportunity to motivate can be just as well served by offering award or reward to the teams that take the time to spin up their shops as it can by requiring it to compete. Requiring it to compete does on the other hand keep some people out.

Both approaches can coexist until the level of play gets so high that only professionally designed COTS parts are able to play - then it's a problem. Other than a shortage of tires and treads we haven't seen that yet.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

The problem is that COTS can remove a motivator to understand how the parts are made. In fairness, in the other related topic, I voted for allowing COTS at every level.

This opportunity to motivate can be just as well served by offering award or reward to the teams that take the time to spin up their shops as it can by requiring it to compete. Requiring it to compete does on the other hand keep some people out.

Both approaches can coexist until the level of play gets so high that only professionally designed COTS parts are able to play - then it's a problem. Other than a shortage of tires and treads we haven't seen that yet.

I think this is a key point to all of this. I tried to touch on it somewhat but this helps to clarify much of what's being discussed.

COTS items can be used to help motivate teams with limited resources as a way to demonstrate design concepts to them.

Teams with more available resources are already going through the design process but more in a firsthand way.

And I think you're correct in that until it becomes an issue where you HAVE to actually purchase something that's professionally done then it's not a problem.

My hope is that we never actually see that time come.

[Taylor]

Two thoughts:
1. If the major suppliers really had "insider knowledge" for the games, then (a) we could all get game pieces (b) suppliers' shelves would have been stocked with pneumatic wheels and treads this year (and REV and mecanums* last year) (c) the Ri3D teams would be obsolete. Also, conveniently ignored are the multiple accounts from Frank himself that this game wasn't really conceived until a few months ago.

2. It would be nice if all teams had a full machine shop and a full bevy of mentors to train the students. But we don't have that, and that's why FIRST is how it is. FIRST is here to reach the affluent, already college-bound students with boundless resources; it is also here to reach the poverty-stricken urban and rural students who don't see a diploma as worthwhile, and everybody in between. For low-resource teams of any socioeconomic or technologic level, COTS products can provide the difference between an embarrassing BLT dragging a chain behind it and a functional, respectable machine.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Taylor

...
Also, conveniently ignored are the multiple accounts from Frank himself that this game wasn't really conceived until a few months ago.

2. It would be nice if all teams had a full machine shop and a full bevy of mentors to train the students. But we don't have that, and that's why FIRST is how it is. FIRST is here to reach the affluent, already college-bound students with boundless resources; it is also here to reach the poverty-stricken urban and rural students who don't see a diploma as worthwhile, and everybody in between. For low-resource teams of any socioeconomic or technologic level, COTS products can provide the difference between an embarrassing BLT dragging a chain behind it and a functional, respectable machine.

1. Even a month is too much warning to a vendor.
It's a month more than anyone else.
If FIRST needs something available by kickoff that's what the KOP is for.
So, if anything, perhaps FIRST should have put pneumatic tires in the KOP this year.

2. Agreed as long as COTS doesn't decide between success and failure for everyone it's fine. In this case I mean specifically that the game leaves -everyone- no choice but to buy a COTS part or fail. I want people to have access to the tools and for FIRST to continue to be a good reason to strive for that. FIRST has saved many a machine shop in a school and if we give up on that too easily that help will disappear. As we dash to protect COTS we should remember that to detractors of having these resources COTS is just another reason you don't need them. The fact it helps those less fortunate is why I voted openly in the other topic to let all COTS, even robots, in. However that decision carries responsibilities to steward the gains FIRST made for so many. I can tell everyone right now - if not for the FIRST FRC requirements: Team 11/193 would not have the tools we do. By 1995 the Mount Olive High School shops were seeing insufficient upkeep. When I graduated in 1994 was the last year there was any room to cut back without losses. Much of the money that keeps the tools there running comes from mentors, sponsors and FRC11/193.

It is admirable to think forward but also make sure you're not forgetting the positive stuff that happened before.