Value of defense

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

From my team's Game Analysis, 2 great robots should EASILY be able to cross all defenses and eliminate the Tower's Defenses. So what scoring is left for the 3rd robot to do.

Obviously, be a 4'6" shot-blocking wall, of course. Block all the silly 1'2" shooting robots. (just make sure that they don't get too close to the Outer Works and draw penalties.) As long as they can cross either Category B or D obstacles, they can join us to Capture the Tower during the last 30 seconds.

You go ahead with your 3 offensive robots, I'll send my moving wall over to play with you (4 robots in 1 courtyard!!!), and we'll do more with 2 robots than you accomplish with 3.

[tr6scott]

Originally Posted by ahartnet

I think a key thing everyone here is missing is that the defender may not be focusing so much on blocking shots or messing up a robot trying to shot but preventing boulder pickup from the secret passage.

This is the way I see it too, if you don't play a defense bot, then you are allowing every robot to be a 469 breakaway bot, once there are 6 balls behind the tower, they make a shot, and you hand them another ball to shoot, there is no risk to to being in the secret passage.

This is game is all about game piece control, 6 balls behind red, 6 balls behind blue, 6 robots, no balls on the field.

If no alliances play defense, then do you have this years noodle agreement? Both alliances defeat the tower and capture it unobstructed just to give each other the (RP) qualification points. . .

[TogetherSword8]

Originally Posted by tr6scott

If no alliances play defense, then do you have this years noodle agreement? Both alliances defeat the tower and capture it unobstructed just to give each other the (RP) qualification points. . .

I would say no, because winning the match is worth the same as the agreement, and if you play defense and win a match, and your alliance partners get one of the bonus 1 rp goals, then you have already made an improvement on your 2 rp deal.

[IronicDeadBird]

The revisions on the rules so far make this years defense positioning heavy and not just (please pardon the term) destructive. A lot of instances are cropping up where you just need to get to a point to be safe so defense is stopping a robot before they reach that point.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by martin417

With all the potential for scoring, and the availability of scoring opportunities, combined with the protection rules for robots during scoring, I don't see any value to playing defense. If your goal is to maximize Qual points (during qualification matches), your alliance needs to breach the four defenses and take the tower. Any time spent playing defense detracts from the time available to damage defenses and weaken the tower. Even a pizza box can be an effective scorer this year. I believe you can score more points during the match than you can possibly prevent.

Eh, Aerial Assist was okay, not the best but far from the worst. I fully agree with you that defense, at least being a dedicated defender, is going to be useless, usually. If you're against an alliance that relies extremely heavily on tower points, however, it's a viable option. Much like Aerial Assist, the ideal job for any robot will not be pure defense, it will be to periodically complete a scoring objective, and defend while not completing one of these objectives. In 2014, you would prioritize your "job" on the alliance (inbound, pass, truss, shoot) and defend while not completing that job. This season, the same concept applies.

[abigailthefox]

Originally Posted by jdaming

What rules are you talking about? There is nothing like the key (in RR) this year. If you are talking about backing up into the outer works that seems to grey area that I am sure the QA will clarify.

If everyone is truly building short robots as a recent poll suggest then I think a 4ft 6" blocker angled 15 inches into your short robot could be very effective at blocking shots.

Ahahaha yes, the true value of defense this year. Since short bots seem to be arriving in the masses, a tall bot has the potential to be an extremely powerful defender as well as being a power scoring bot. The options for a tall bot with defensive capabilities could be endless...although this does depend on whether the small bot trend will pan out, or simply be relegated to rookies and Ri3D teams.

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

From my team's Game Analysis, 2 great robots should EASILY be able to cross all defenses and eliminate the Tower's Defenses.

Easily hey? I wouldn't guess this happens until regional semi-finals in most regionals.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

From my team's Game Analysis, 2 great robots should EASILY be able to cross all defenses and eliminate the Tower's Defenses.
.

Why two?

We tend to be very strong in the PNW and should be respectable at Champs, but are not set up to ever truly be a "top" team. Looking at all of our analysis of our abilities and the game, I see no reason why ONE very strong robot couldn't damage all the defenses in a match. I suspect there will be a few that can do just that. There will be more that can handle all the defenses, but not necessarily in the allotted time..... Being able to to damage all five should not be uncommon, though I don't see it happening that frequently in week 1 and 2 qualifying events....

Still, back to the topic at hand... If all three robots cross a defense during autonomous, a strong breaching specialist should be able to finish the breach on its own. A strong shooter should be able to deal with all the boulders in its opponent's courtyard - and be looking for something to do. The third robot will need to focus on some combination of delivering boulders (scoring them?) and playing defense.

I'm not yet convinced that a lot of defense will be the ideal way to go... The shooter will need a steady supply of boulders in order to maximize its potential... Will the third bot be able to add more points to the scoring potential than it can prevent the other side from attaining? We may have to see this play out a bit before we know...

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

Looking at all of our analysis of our abilities and the game, I see no reason why ONE very strong robot couldn't damage all the defenses in a match. I suspect there will be a few that can do just that.

It would be a very strong robot indeed that could do a 15 second game cycle scoring boulders through the worst four of seven defenses in arbitrary locations on the field looking out through their own outer defenses, even against minimal active defense. Will there be any? Probably; this is certainly within the Cheezy Poofs, Simbotics, or RoboWranglers' capabilities, and perhaps a dozen others. Will there be many? Probably not. Our primary goal is to be able to score either QP solo (edit: except, of course, for alliance partners getting onto the batter), while helping towards the other, and being able to rack up boulders once the OP is breached. We also expect to have a high percentage high goal shot; we have used cameras to do the equivalent of this twice already. These attributes will probably be enough to be an alliance captain or easy first round pick at a regional.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

It would be a very strong robot indeed that could do a 15 second game cycle scoring boulders through the worst four of seven defenses in arbitrary locations on the field looking out through their own outer defenses, even against minimal active defense.

I agree with this, but I think there will be non-elite teams who will be able to cross all the necessary defenses by ignoring all balls. Especially early in the season, I expect there should be many surprise teams that seed very high while 'better' robots spend their time chasing balls around the field. If I was a non-elite team competing at an early or weaker event, I would strongly consider this strategy.

In response to the main topic, of course there will be defense...

[staplemonx]

How many seconds of teleop will the average defender bot take to get to their court yard and in position to play defense on anyone? 20 - 30 seconds based on the skill of drivers on teams who would pick a defensive bot?

How many cycles could a shooter bot accomplish in 20 seconds? 1-2 cycles under the low goal based on the skill of the scoring team.

How many seconds f teleop will the average defender bot take to get to the neutral zone in front of the opponents secret passage? 5-15 seconds?

How many cycles could a shooter bot accomplish in 20 seconds with a defensive bot in the neutral zone? 0-1 under the low goal based on the lack of skill on the defending team?

Defensive bots will be very useful in the neutral zone if all they do is go back and forth on the center line. They will cut the number of cycles of most teams in half i bet.

[slickvic2252]

Originally Posted by VacioArconte

Whether or not defense is important this year comes down to which alliance would win:

1. An alliance with three shooters
2. An alliance with two shooters and a defender

Since between three robots, a breach is very likely to occur in most matches (although speed is a different matter), if a defender can at least slow down the shooting cycle of all three bots, those three bots will probably be outscored by two undefended shooters.

I think that defense is especially important this year because it's so difficult for drivers to line up their shots, given the limited visibility, while defenders have a clear view of what they are defending.

I'm sure that there will be a different value to defense at different levels of competition. A defender at an early regional or district event might prevent 100% of tower-scored points, while a defender at a late regional or champs may not be able to keep up with the offensive pressure of multiple scorers.

Either way, we'll find out in six weeks!

What won in 2013 I believe it was 3 shooting robots....

[mac]

Thank you GDC. For me this is the first game that one or two robots will not be able to win a match by them selves. Mentor Mac

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by slickvic2252

What won in 2013 I believe it was 3 shooting robots....

3 shooters, but remember that 1477 went to shut down 469 whenever they got into position for full-court... This same concept applies this year. This game can be played in so many ways that it is impossible to say "2 offense- 1 defense is always superior to 3 offense" or vice versa. It is entirely dependent on who you are against. There's no reason to have a defender if you're against an alliance you can't defend against. I've gone through a few examples of viable alliance setups below, and included my thoughts on effective counterplay against these alliances:

1) The breach boogaloo: 3 dedicated breachers with low goal capabilities. This is by far the safest alliance; there is little to no legal defensive maneuvers to take against this alliance. However, without any high goal abilities, their points potential is very low, and the focus on breaching leaves lots of balls open for your use. Ignore defensive strategies, just outscore them.

2) The capture cluster: 3 dedicated shooters that can cross B/D defenses. Counterplay with this alliance may seem easy at first, but it is actually pretty complicated. If they are performing at a high level, this alliance could easily take care of the group C defense while cycling. With the terrain to serve as an equalizer, there will likely be multiple shooters taking shots in the courtyard at any given time, leaving the defense bot to try to block two or more robots, which is pretty difficult to do. However, without any breach potential, this alliance could absolutely be outscored. Defense in the courtyard is not ideal because of the number of shots that need to be blocked. Instead, defend choke points on the field, near the secret passages and wherever a robot is trying to collect.

3) Specialists: B/D defense/inbounder, Breach specialist, Shooting specialist. By far the easiest alliance to counter, but also has crazy high points potential at higher levels of play. Inbounder and breacher immediately take care of C defense while shooter scores a couple from the center line. Then, inbounder takes position inbounding balls through the low bar or B/D defense for the shooter. Meanwhile, the breach specialist finishes the breach and dumps a few in the low goal. There's really nothing to be done against the breacher, so the easiest way to shut down this alliance is with a blocker in the courtyard. With only one shooter to defend against, it's easy to beat this alliance, especially at low to medium levels of play.

4) Double Hybrids: 2 hybrid breach/shooters and a B/D/lowbar inbounder. This alliance is extremely strong. Two shooters in the courtyard makes defense difficult, and an inbounder keeping the courtyard full means their job is made that much easier. 3 bots that can all contribute to a breach will make it easy, especially when one's sole purpose involves crossing defenses to get balls staged for shooters. The best way to stop this alliance is to have multiple robots contribute in some way to defense. Whenever it's possible, shooters should do their best to prevent the inbounder from getting balls, and breachers and inbounders should try to stop shots in the courtyard. There's few ways to outscore this alliance, so attacking from all fronts will help reduce their potential most effectively.

5) The very happy shooter: 2 inbound/breachers and a shooter. This shooter will be very happy with two robots feeding it, and the two breachers can handle the collaborative C defense without interrupting the shooter. With a consistent, fast shooter, this alliance could be insanely strong. However, a decent courtyard defender could easily shut down that shooter, with no robot constantly nearby to help it. This is the only alliance that I can way, with 100% certainty, you will always need a blocker. Stopping that shooter leaves this alliance with extremely limited points, so shutting it down is extremely important.

[Ginger Power]

Will it be so easy to shut down an elite shooter? In other words, can an elite defender easily shut down an elite shooter? I think an elite shooter should have a decent advantage.

Logic: The shooter can shoot from near max height at an upward angle from the outer works. The defender will have to give a little buffer between them and the offensive robot so as to avoid penalties. If the defender isn't tall enough to block the ball, and isn't allowed to hit the shooter, what can they do? An elite shooter should be able to hit >80% of their shots.

If an elite defender can shut down an elite shooter, defense is very valuable. In the higher levels of play, 2 breacher/shooters will easily be able to breach and defeat the tower. The elite breacher/shooters will have little need for a support bot so it might be advantageous to have that third robot play defense in most cases.

Of it's all just speculation at this point. But that's what Chief Delphi is for!