Low Bar

[sagi34]

Originally Posted by MaGiC_PiKaChU

Can those robots going under the low bar still:

-Scale?
-Shoot high?
-cross all defenses (except maybe C because no one seems to care)?
-get a 2 boulder autonomous?
-all those answers at the same time?

That is where it gets interesting!

cross all defences and get a 2 boulder autonomous (which I think is almost impossible without crossing the middle line) isn't about the height of the robot in my opinion.
I think that shooting high is a bit harder, but still lots of teams will do it.
the main problem will be scaling, it is very hard to put almost 2 meters of climbing mechanism into 40 cm robot (sorry for metric system lol), especially if you want to shoot high and scale the tower.
you will see the best teams do it all, but I think that it will be 20 teams max.

[GeeTwo]

As always, we started wanting to do everything. Scaling went first. Having the low bar available for the go-to boulder cycle was far more important. Note that we must be in a certain configuration (not starting configuration) to make the low bar. It is a configuration we will naturally have after loading and before launching a boulder, so it shouldn't slow us down.

Edit: I realize now that this is misleading. Our primary design goal is to be a sapper bot (knock out defenses), but we also recognize that the only "unlimited" points in the game come from scoring boulders in the tower. As such, we have as a close second requirement to be able to score in the high goal, preferably over a tall defending robot, which (as a low bar robot) means a high, relatively slow launch angle. After working through a drive train design (weeks 2 and 3 mostly) this is where most of our skull work is going. Pickups are a well enough understood question that we are designing them to also work the category A defenses (portcullis and cheval de frise).

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by sagi34

cross all defences and get a 2 boulder autonomous (which I think is almost impossible without crossing the middle line) isn't about the height of the robot in my opinion.
I think that shooting high is a bit harder, but still lots of teams will do it.
the main problem will be scaling, it is very hard to put almost 2 meters of climbing mechanism into 40 cm robot (sorry for metric system lol), especially if you want to shoot high and scale the tower.
you will see the best teams do it all, but I think that it will be 20 teams max.

2 ball autonomous seems much harder than the 20 point for stacking 2 yellow totes last year and that a 1 out of 30-40 ish skill last year (meaning 1 team out of 30-40 could reliably accomplish that task in a match). I suppose that 2 ball auton is closer to a 1 out of 100 ish skill meaning at most 30 to 40 teams in the world will be able to do this reliably. And as I type that, I don't believe it. No Sagi34 is right. more like a 1 out of 200 ish skill for 20 teams max.

Dr. Joe J.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

2 ball autonomous seems much harder than the 20 point for stacking 2 yellow totes last year and that a 1 out of 30-40 ish skill last year (meaning 1 team out of 30-40 could reliably accomplish that task in a match). I suppose that 2 ball auton is closer to a 1 out of 100 ish skill meaning at most 30 to 40 teams in the world will be able to do this reliably. And as I type that, I don't believe it. No Sagi34 is right. more like a 1 out of 200 ish skill for 20 teams max.

Dr. Joe J.

its easier than you think in theory, whether we pull it off is another story. I think many teams will attempt it as its 10-20 extra points if you score 2 or 3 balls in HG. Seems to me there is extra time that teams will not want to waste. I would say 1 in 50 teams will pull it off. About 1 successful per competition. I no way is it impossible as there are fixed points on the field for all necessary steps in achieving it.

10 extra points 2 ball auto = 2 HG tele points (extra 12.5% weaken)
20 extra points 3 ball auto = 4 HG tele points (extra 25% weaken)

Since it matters teams will try.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Boltman

its easier than you think in theory, whether we pull it off is another story. I think many teams will attempt it as its 10-20 extra points if you score 2 or 3 balls in HG. Seems to me there is extra time that teams will not want to waste. I would say 1 in 50 teams will pull it off.

True but a 2-3 ball auto is orders of magnitude harder than a defense of a 2-3 ball auto. Example, knocking the balls off the center line to anywhere but where the team that is doing the 2-3 ball auto wants them. A multi ball auto might help you capture the tower during quals but I'm not convinced that it secures a regional/championship win once teams can plan out defenses for it.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

True but a 2-3 ball auto is orders of magnitude harder than a defense of a 2-3 ball auto. Example, knocking the balls off the center line to anywhere but where the team that is doing the 2-3 ball auto wants them. A multi ball auto might help you capture the tower during quals but I'm not convinced that it secures a regional/championship win once teams can plan out defenses for it.

Teams cannot defend in Auto without reprogramming the spy bot and highly risk a foul impeding crossing. As for midline shenanigans that means that bot is not scoring either. Not likely I'm saying.

I really don't see the advantage to not Scoring in auto yourself and attempting to prevent team X from doing their multi ball auto the mid line rule and the not prevent crossing rule make that highly unlikely to succeed.

Plus the way defenses are laid out they are on opposite sides so main auto action is opposite.

I guess it could happen however that seems very unlikely. But who knows?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Teams cannot defend in Auto without reprogramming the spy bot and highly risk a foul impeding crossing. As for midline shenanigans that means that bot is not scoring either. Not likely I'm saying.

I really don't see the advantage to not Scoring in auto yourself and attempting to prevent team X from doing their multi ball auto the mid line rule and the not prevent crossing rule make that highly unlikely to succeed.

Plus the way defenses are laid out they are on opposite sides so main auto action is opposite.

I guess it could happen however that seems very unlikely. But who knows?

First, the spy bot is on your offensive side of the field and has nothing to do with defending multi ball autos. 2nd hitting two balls out of the way takes far less time then is needed to score in auto, they aren't mutually exclusive. A 1 or 2 ball lead on the tower coming out of auto is a huge advantage which is why high level teams will attempt that very hard challenge. If a team starts consistently making 2-3 auto balls it is clearly beneficial for an opposite alliance in eliminations to try to get to those balls first and prevent their opponents from scoring them. Wasn't it better for 1114 to try and defend 254's three ball auto in 2014 instead of scoring a high goal themselves.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

First, the spy bot is on your offensive side of the field and has nothing to do with defending multi ball autos. 2nd hitting two balls out of the way takes far less time then is needed to score in auto, they aren't mutually exclusive. A 1 or 2 ball lead on the tower coming out of auto is a huge advantage which is why high level teams will attempt that very hard challenge. If a team starts consistently making 2-3 auto balls it is clearly beneficial for an opposite alliance in eliminations to try to get to those balls first and prevent their opponents from scoring them. Wasn't it better for 1114 to try and defend 254's three ball auto in 2014 instead of scoring a high goal themselves.

How are you planning on knocking balls in auto without crossing the mid-line and avoiding the high chance of a foul?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Boltman

How are you planning on knocking balls in auto without crossing the mid-line and avoiding the high chance of a foul?

How are teams planning to collect balls without getting foul? It seems a lot easier to just hit a ball then it does to intake it. Pretty sure it can be done with a pneumatic cylinder and a couple sticks.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

How are teams planning to collect balls without getting foul? It seems a lot easier to just hit a ball then it does to intake it. Pretty sure it can be done with a pneumatic cylinder and a couple sticks.

Perhaps I suspect intake to be easier.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Perhaps I suspect intake to be easier.

Anything involving the center line involves a ridiculous amount of accuracy, so I suppose it may be possible that you're right. That being said, it's a general rule that screwing something up is significantly easier than doing it, and I see no reason to suspect that's not the case here.

[Abrakadabra]

Not sure how this thread about the Low Bar got sidetracked into a discussion about 2-ball auton, but here is my question:

How many teams have actually practiced going under the Low Bar WITH the cloth barrier in place? If you have, how would you say that it affects your ability to successfully cross the defense?

Also - it may have been stated elsewhere, but please note that the Team drawings of the field specify black iron pipe as the weight for the curtain, while the actual field will have an aluminum pipe - quite a difference in weight!

[zinthorne]

[quote=Abrakadabra;1532940]Not sure how this thread about the Low Bar got sidetracked into a discussion about 2-ball auton, but here is my question:

How many teams have actually practiced going under the Low Bar WITH the cloth barrier in place? If you have, how would you say that it affects your ability to successfully cross the defense?

We have tried it. You need to make sure you don't have anything on the top of your robot for it to get caught on. It's very easy to get snagged. And you should have some time of roll bars or something else that accomplishes protecting the top of your robot. The bar/fabric will catch on the inside of your robot easily.

[Anthony Galea]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

2 ball autonomous seems much harder than the 20 point for stacking 2 yellow totes last year and that a 1 out of 30-40 ish skill last year (meaning 1 team out of 30-40 could reliably accomplish that task in a match). I suppose that 2 ball auton is closer to a 1 out of 100 ish skill meaning at most 30 to 40 teams in the world will be able to do this reliably. And as I type that, I don't believe it. No Sagi34 is right. more like a 1 out of 200 ish skill for 20 teams max.

Dr. Joe J.

Even then, i expect it to be able to be consistently accomplished by <5 teams, if at all. It just seems to be a task that requires insane accuracy, and requires ridiculously precise measurements, with a less than 5" margin of error (depending on how your intake works), and then being able to score twice with the right precision will be hard.

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Boltman

<snip>
I think many teams will attempt it as its 10-20 extra points if you score 2 or 3 balls in HG. Seems to me there is extra time that teams will not want to waste. I would say 1 in 50 teams will pull it off. About 1 successful per competition.

<snip>

10 extra points 2 ball auto = 2 HG tele points (extra 12.5% weaken)
20 extra points 3 ball auto = 4 HG tele points (extra 25% weaken)

Since it matters teams will try.

Originally Posted by 3175student17

<snip>
It just seems to be a task that requires insane accuracy, and requires ridiculously precise measurements, with a less than 5" margin of error (depending on how your intake works), and then being able to score twice with the right precision will be hard.

I hear you, Boltman. I definitely see the value. But, in the end, I'm with you, 3175student17.

I just think this is a tougher hill to climb than most teams that attempt it will be able to pull off. Many will try. Few will succeed.


Dr. Joe J.