Broke down in the secret passage

[SoccerTaco]

It seems like it is possible for a robot to become inoperable in their opponent's secret passage, next to the brattice, such that they are blocking their opponent from acquiring more boulders.

I've been wondering what would happen in this situation. If blue robot is broken down, red robot can come in and try to get to the brattice, contact the blue robot and a tech foul will be assessed to blue. But, then what? Red can back up and hit blue over and over, trying to get push them out of the way. Initially, that might be tech foul after tech foul assessed to blue. But at some point, when the futility of moving blue out of the way is apparent, would that start to become a violation of G11 on red?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by SoccerTaco

It seems like it is possible for a robot to become inoperable in their opponent's secret passage, next to the brattice, such that they are blocking their opponent from acquiring more boulders.

I've been wondering what would happen in this situation. If blue robot is broken down, red robot can come in and try to get to the brattice, contact the blue robot and a tech foul will be assessed to blue. But, then what? Red can back up and hit blue over and over, trying to get push them out of the way. Initially, that might be tech foul after tech foul assessed to blue. But at some point, when the futility of moving blue out of the way is apparent, would that start to become a violation of G11 on red?

That would be a good question for Q&A. However, it'll probably be answered with "that's up to the referee's judgement", and then hopefully gets covered in the ref training.

[MrJohnston]

Submitted to Q&A.

[New Lightning]

Well I would look to something that happened to my old team one year. In 2014 we were in a match when one of are alliance partners accidentally pushed a team from the other alliance into out other alliance partner's robot. Initially the rest assigned two tech fouls and then left it for the rest of the match. The tech fouls being assessed for an opposing alliances robot crossing the frame perimeter and potentially causing damage. After the match they ended up removing the fouls because it was not the other alliances fault that they were shoved into another robot. But the real answer to the question is that they would probably give only two fouls and then any continuation of that would probably be covered under G11.

[rich2202]

A disabled robot in the other alliance's secret passage can materially affect the other alliance's ability to score.

What if you intentionally e-stopped your robot in the other team's secret passage in order to inhibit their ability to inbound boulders?

Seems to me that if you become disabled (or e-stopped) in the other Alliance's Secret Passage, it could be deemed a forfeit of the game. The game would continue for Ranking Points (capture, breaches). Unfortunately, it would still affect the 4th tie breaker: cumulative goal points (5th tie breaker for eliminations).

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by rich2202

A disabled robot in the other alliance's secret passage can materially affect the other alliance's ability to score.

What if you intentionally e-stopped your robot in the other team's secret passage in order to inhibit their ability to inbound boulders?

Seems to me that if you become disabled (or e-stopped) in the other Alliance's Secret Passage, it could be deemed a forfeit of the game. The game would continue for Ranking Points (capture, breaches). Unfortunately, it would still affect the 4th tie breaker: cumulative goal points (5th tie breaker for eliminations).

This is why I think the question is more complicated than a couple of fouls... Could you imagine if, in Einstein Finals, a robot e-stopped in the opponent's secret passage, accepting 50 points in tech fouls, knowing it would cost them far more than that in scoring? Ouch. It is also brutal to call a forfeit because a robot broke down at an inconvenient moment.... It could be a spot where there is not any good answer at all - and we will all just have to go with whatever the GDC decides and hope it never actually happens.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

It is also brutal to call a forfeit because a robot broke down at an inconvenient moment....

Think of it as one of the many dangers of being in the team's secret passage.

The one exception being: Team lost control of the robot, it ran across the field, hit the wall, and the team e-stopped it. Then, I could see some leniency, but what? It is still keeping the other alliance from scoring. At least a forfeit could stop the alliance from racking up foul points (the disabled robot no longer can receive foul points).

Another possibility: The first contact with the disabled robot is the normal penalty (foul). Once that happens, the other alliance is award 5 goal points for every 5 seconds (or portion thereof) remaining in the game.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Seems to me that if you become disabled (or e-stopped) in the other Alliance's Secret Passage, it could be deemed a forfeit of the game. The game would continue for Ranking Points (capture, breaches). Unfortunately, it would still affect the 4th tie breaker: cumulative goal points (5th tie breaker for eliminations).

If you hit the E-stop in there, you're pretty much making yourself eligible for a G25 as a strategy to impede match flow. It's not in there--that might be an oversight--but I would find it very difficult to NOT call it as a field blockade, UNLESS there was some overriding safety concern.

Seems like a good question for a Q&A, or an email to FRCteams more likely.

[rich2202]

Yes, e-stop is not a good idea to do on a regular basis. An e-stop practically invites a reinspection by an RI.

However, if you are one match away from winning Einstein, and ...

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Yes, e-stop is not a good idea to do on a regular basis. An e-stop practically invites a reinspection by an RI.

However, if you are one match away from winning Einstein, and ...

I'm going to suggest that at that point if there's not smoke belching out of the robot you're going to have some explaining to do and the best you could hope for is a field fault being declared and a replay of the match.

If the explanations come up short, well it's really hard to win with your score reduced to zero by a DQ.

[JesseK]

I hope to be a ref at a couple of events this season, and given my current understanding of the rules this is how I'd call it.

• I agree with Eric, in that e-stop inside the secret passage is conceding that there is no way the team will attempt to remove the robot after the e-stop.
• If comms were lost with the robot due to the field or another undetermined reason, most likely the match would possibly be replayed, (subject to the Q&A/etc)
• If magic smoke appeared before the e-stop, a drive train chain was obviously off of its sprocket (e.g.), or FTA let me know of packet dump, ping time or brown-out conditions, the match would not be replayed and any FOULS, TECH FOULS or YELLOW CARDs would stand.
• A blue robot in the red secret passage only gets 1 Tech Foul if the red robot keeps backing up and continuously bumping the blue robot, but if and only if the blue robot is e-stopped
• If the blue robot is e-stopped, a red robot hits the blue robot in the red secret passage, gets a ball, performs a cycle, then comes back for a 2nd ball and hits the blue robot again. The blue robot has now incurred two [G21] Tech Fouls. In other words, I see it as 1 tech foul per attempt to get a ball.
• It is probable in this situation that all three red robots will capitalize and net out MANY tech fouls for the blue alliance, more than it is worth in blue preventing match flow. In reality the red robots would need to work together to move the blue robot in order to get to their balls
• If blue completely clogs the opening such that no more balls may fit through the HP station openings then red is relieved of the [G34] violations due to [G11]
• Clogging up the openings risks [G11] violations (yellow card) due to attempting to cause [G34] penalties if the blue alliance continues to score boulders while the blue robot is e-stopped in the red secret passage.
• [G25] doesn't apply to this situation. The robot that e-stopped is in contact with the carpet in the SECRET PASSAGE and therefore [G25.E] doesn't apply.

[pandamonium]

This same issue seems to happen if a robot is disabled in their own courtyard during the last 20 seconds. Touching them is easier than scoring points. I think that further rules clarification will show that this is considered unGP but we will see...

[MrJohnston]

From Q&A:

A. We will not rule definitively on hypothetical scenarios in this forum as many factors may play into rulings in individual situations. Generally a Team will not be called for G11 (attempting to draw a foul) if they are, in the judgement of the Referee, attempting to play the game, however futilely. There is no exemption from penalties for ROBOTS which have become immobile or DISABLED.

It sounds to me like, should this happen, a robot should try to continuously move the "dead" robot from the secret passage....

[Rhelik]

I can tell you a few years back during Ultimate Ascent an alliance member's robot went dead after getting hit and just coasted into the opponents protected box. Then for the rest of the game as everyone came in for Frisbees they would tap that robot while in motion and gain some free foul points since he was "in the way".

Those are the rules and the risks.

-Bernie

[BigBen]

I think people are forgetting that you can enter a boulder in the brattice (upper opening) as well. I find it hard to believe all of the boulders would end up on the field without some in a playable location.

So in my opinion, disabling the robot in the secret passage would only result in a lot of fouls against your team and while slowing the other team down would still result in your loss.