ratio of 2-ball autos to G13 infractions

[JesseK]

I double-double-double dog dare opponents to put the wrong defense in the middle .

The sequencing to prevent a [G13] penalty seems pretty straightforward. Whether or not a ref suffers from parallax in calling [G13] is another thing. For Worlds it seems like we'll need a 'foul line' sensor like what the sport of bowling has.

[IronicDeadBird]

Why would teams pull a G13 from a well planned 2 ball auto?

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Why would teams pull a G13 from a well planned 2 ball auto?

Early attempts on the actual FRC field will cause robot wheels to slip. Later attempts to 'race' the opponents will cause robot momentum to move the robot too far. So [G13] is inevitable in making the attempt for a 2-ball autonomous, even with a well-refined autonomous, IMO.

It's easy to make up 5 points of fouls for grazing the auto line, but not so easy if contact is made with the opponents. So the risk/reward is there to 'race' the opponent and to attempt the 2-ball before the robot is 100% perfect.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Early attempts on the actual FRC field will cause robot wheels to slip. Later attempts to 'race' the opponents will cause robot momentum to move the robot too far. So [G13] is inevitable in making the attempt for a 2-ball autonomous, even with a well-refined autonomous, IMO. It's easy to make up 5 points of fouls for grazing the auto line, but not so easy if contact is made with the opponents. So the risk/reward is there to 'race' the opponent and to attempt the 2-ball before the robot is 100% perfect.

Oddly specific case but okay. I can tell you right now some teams are going to do a 2 (or potentially more) ball auto without ever pulling a G13.
These students are crafty sons of guns....
They appear to be learning...

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Oddly specific case but okay. I can tell you right now some teams are going to do a 2 (or potentially more) ball auto without ever pulling a G13.
These students are crafty sons of guns....
They appear to be learning...

Sure they're crafty, but does physics agree with them? Is their autonomous accurate to within less than an inch? Even if so, will it be blatantly obvious to a ref on the center line that they're not a hair over?

Seems like a gentleman's bet is in order...

[jkelleyrtp]

Wait is no one else attaching a shopvac to the back of their robot?

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Sure they're crafty, but does physics agree with them? Is their autonomous accurate to within less than an inch? Even if so, will it be blatantly obvious to a ref on the center line that they're not a hair over?

Seems like a gentleman's bet is in order...

Alright the way I would phrase the bet is like this.
I would be that any team that follows the method our team is planning on using for a 2 ball auto would not pull a g13 for any reason but stupidity.
Even in failing the 2 ball auto we would not pull a g13.
Basically if we flop and pull a g13 we deserve it.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

I'm starting to think getting a G13 might be worth it.

single ball + cross = 20 points
2 balls + cross + g13 = 25 points (30 to you and 5 to the opponents)

The last boulder would give only a 5 point advantage, but you get to weaken the tower by 1 more boulder every match.

[Turing'sEgo]

A safer alternative would be to score an alliance partner's boulder (that wasn't planning on scoring it in autonomous). I'm willing to bet that we won't see 3 robots on an alliance score their boulders until late into the season. It'll get you the same amount of points, and without the risk of G13.

[Peyton Yeung]

Originally Posted by Turing'sEgo

A safer alternative would be to score an alliance partner's boulder (that wasn't planning on scoring it in autonomous). I'm willing to bet that we won't see 3 robots on an alliance score their boulders until late into the season. It'll get you the same amount of points, and without the risk of G13.

This seem harder than in previous years because this year requires the ball to be off the floor to start.

[Turing'sEgo]

Originally Posted by Peyton Yeung

This seem harder than in previous years because this year requires the ball to be off the floor to start.

It is a harder task, but is it harder than picking up from the middle of the field without being called for G13? You get your schedule ahead of time, you do some pre scouting and ask a team that isn't planning on scoring their boulder in autonomous to gently place it on the ground for you. It takes coordination, which may be difficult, but it is a safer alternative and in my opinion easier to execute than picking up from the mid line as it doesn't require your autonomous to be perfect down to centimetres.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Turing'sEgo

It is a harder task, but is it harder than picking up from the middle of the field without being called for G13? You get your schedule ahead of time, you do some pre scouting and ask a team that isn't planning on scoring their boulder in autonomous to gently place it on the ground for you. It takes coordination, which may be difficult, but it is a safer alternative and in my opinion easier to execute than picking up from the mid line as it doesn't require your autonomous to be perfect down to centimetres.

We would MUCH rather pick up from the mid-line.... It may be a bit tricky, but the boulders are in very predictable locations - which can be programmed from our shop... Coordinating such a thing with another robot would require specialization every match we attempt it (generally there would not be time) and runs the risk of mistakes. (We make plenty of mistakes with our own robot, we don't need to compound them with another team's errors.)

[Turing'sEgo]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

We would MUCH rather pick up from the mid-line.... It may be a bit tricky, but the boulders are in very predictable locations - which can be programmed from our shop... Coordinating such a thing with another robot would require specialization every match we attempt it (generally there would not be time) and runs the risk of mistakes. (We make plenty of mistakes with our own robot, we don't need to compound them with another team's errors.)

Yes, it requires both robots to work well, but it is doable.

Imagine this scenario: You just picked your alliance for elims. You have a lunch break before the matches start. It isn't inconceivable to get this working in that hour if the robot doing the scoring has a way of tracking balls, knowing where it is on the field, and preferably some sort of waypoint based trajectory planner to put everything together so you don't have to guess and check every step of the way.

[GeeTwo]

An auto ball is worth 10 points, and a G13 foul is worth -5 points. If teams play smart, there will be fewer than twice as many G13s as second boulders scored. I expect the actual ratio to be worse than this; teams tend to be optimistic.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by MaGiC_PiKaChU

I'm starting to think getting a G13 might be worth it.

single ball + cross = 20 points
2 balls + cross + g13 = 25 points (30 to you and 5 to the opponents)

The last boulder would give only a 5 point advantage, but you get to weaken the tower by 1 more boulder every match.

Until you start racking up yellow cards for repeated infractions of the rules.