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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:27
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Terrifying Karthik

Enough time has passed. I think we can have a discussion about this now.

It is going to be a bit meta but I think we can handle it.

Background:

In the thread/poll Low Bar, 90% of teams said they planned on being able to go under the low bar. To which, the enigmatic Karthik said this "The results of this poll are terrifying."

When a deep strategist like Karthik speaks such things, there are a LOT of folks asking themselves questions
  • What am I missing that I too am not terrified?
  • Should I be terrified?
  • Is this something that only scares folk whose footfalls are routine upon the Carpets of Einstein or do mere mortals have something to fear as well?
  • Do these robots make me look fat?

As far as I know, Karthik has made no more public statements about his fears.

THIS CANNOT STAND!

What do YOU think Karthik is terrified of?

Tell us what you think in a reply to this thread

Best contributor to the thread (as of Wednesday at Midnight): 12 Cans of Mt. Dew coming your way to support you during the home stretch of the build season.

It is not just one response but the entire contribution from a CD user that is being judged. Of course, Karthik is not eligible**

Cheers,
Dr. Joe J.

*as judged by yours truly. I'm buying the Dew, I'm making the call.

**but he can feel free to help me sort the wheat from the chaff -- I won't turn him away. I still get final call on the winner.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:32
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Karthik is afraid that the small low bar robots will eventually rise up and form one super bot, so that they can commence conquest of the planet.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:33
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Most low bar robots will have very low points of release on their shooters. Many low robots could be blocked simply by a robot that is at the height limit. The idea that many or most teams could be blocked by 2013-style pool noodle blockers is pretty terrifying in my opinion.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:37
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

It's going to be a confluence of factors, I'm sure. I'm guessing the primary concern is that 90% of robots using the low-bar implies that 90% of robots on the field have apparently decided to use a one robot wide section of the field as as their main thoroughfare. In a game that's going to require constant cycling over defenses to score points. Thinking back to 2013, where something like 90% of robots were too tall to sneak under towers, this sounds like a recipe for a traffic jam of immense proportions. Of course in 2013, you could score 4 discs per cycle. This year it's just one boulder, so cycling is going to be more frequent.

But the terrifying thing is this: In 2013, being low was a significant challenge you took on to gain field access and mobility. This year, it appears that a significant number of teams have probably sacrificed other functionality, including defense crossing ability, in order to throw themselves into a traffic jam and likely reduce their overall field access and mobility.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:44
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

I think the terrifying thing is how compromised robot shooter / defense breaking / hanging effectiveness will be by the massive design compromises teams made to do a task that, while having value, does not need to be done by every member of an alliance.

I'm thinking we will see at least one top tier team totally skip the low bar in order to play the rest of the game at a very high level. Even powerhouse teams skip important game tasks. 1114 completely ignored floor loading in 2013. It was important, but only one (or maybe two) robot(s) on an alliance needed to do it, and it allowed them to put more focus on, and devote more space to, their end game mechanism. They played a different role on an alliance and played it better than nearly anybody else. I'm not saying 1114 is skipping the low bar this year, but some powerhouses will.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:50
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

(Most) Low Bar robots will have limited capabilities in other aspects of the game as a trade-off. If 90% of robots are opting out of high goal, hanging, or other defenses (or all of the above), the game is not going to be played to its full potential. An "ideal" alliance would probably have one low bar robot, not three.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:52
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Thanks for this Joe. It should be entertaining at the very least.

My two cents:

Karthik might be scared because 1114 built a low bar capable robot in anticipation that it would will be rare and valuable, only to find out that it will likely be overcrowded.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:53
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Being a team that is working towards the low bar, I can tell you... it is a SIGNIFICANT engineering challenge to do the low bar and everything else. The low bar is one of 5 defenses your team will have to face in each match, and successfully tackling the other defenses becomes much easier when you have more room in your robot to work with. Add to that scoring - as others have said, a low point of release makes you easy to block on the field. Then add on climbing at the end - having a mechanism that lets you successfully climb with this year's rules limitations is difficult. It's even more difficult when you ask said mechanism to fit within ~10" of space and expand to over 6'.

These are all significant engineering challenges to fit into such a small space. What he's afraid of, I think, is that the challenge is way too big for most teams. Yes, there will be some that accomplish it with style. There will be others that accomplish it by intentionally forgoing other aspects of the game. But I think most of them will end up compromising too much, leaving themselves with a robot that has poorly performing mechanisms in every other aspect of the game. That's the fear - that teams are turning an already difficult challenge into a nearly impossible one for the sake of a single defense.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:54
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Let's start by examining the results of the poll:

90% of responses said they are planning on going under the lowbar. That is a LOT of teams planning to go under the bar (Note: I didn't bother checking to see if every response was from a unique team), especially compared to past years game where some objectives were not even attempted by most teams (2015- Can grabbing, 2013- Scaling the pyramid, 2012- Triple Balancing, 2010- Hanging, and I'm not familiar with FRC games prior to 2008). Of course, Chief Delphi is not representative of all of FRC teams.


I think Karthik's fear might be 1 of 4 things:

1) He fears that rookie teams will think it is possible/easy to do everything. Go under the low bar, shoot in the high goal, climb, etc. And then they will be able to do none of those effectively.

2) He is worried that teams will misjudge the actual height requirement, (see this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh....php?t=141439), and based on the time of the poll (19 days into build season) it might be too late for teams to redesign their robot.

3) He thinks that 90% of ChiefDelphi-going teams are overvaluing the value of the low-bar.

4) He realizes that so many teams are doing it and they aren't! What did he overlook! (Okay, this option is basically a joke. I'm sure 1114 will pull everything off. I wouldn't be surprised if they literally fly under the bar and above the tower!)


PS- I see by the time I have finished writing my post, others have already posted. Sorry if this post contains repeated information/opinions.

Edit: It seems like Dr. Joe secretly wants to be a barista! First giving out Starbucks, now Mountain Dew? What sugary beverages come next!
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Unread 08-02-2016, 18:56
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

I'm not looking after get into Karthik's mind, but here is a
pretty simple thing.. 90% low bar robots-> Limbo robots are the standard -> you won't get any advantage on others being short, because almost every team chose to build a Limbo bot-> being a good tall robot will be more rare and unique than being a tall robot-> the unexpected is the big advantage that good high robots can acheive (can't be blocked, can block, easier scale, easier to cross C category).
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Unread 08-02-2016, 19:01
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Karthik is from Canada
Candada is cold
QED: Karthik has brain freeze.

I'll PM my address to you for that Mt. Dew
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Unread 08-02-2016, 19:03
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

I think the answer is simple and has already been stated: design tradeoffs. If a team is designing to be low bar capable they will be less capable in other aspects of the game. That makes the game less interesting to watch, and lowers the floor of the competition which nobody wants to see.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 19:03
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Karthik is afraid that 85% of the teams designing a low bar robot will not execute the design properly (not enough clearance), and that a team getting disabled on the low bar will be part of 90% of all Triple Tortugas.

That leaves a crowded field of short bots to play defense. Worse than robots jumping the moat will be those robots landing on top of other robots.

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Unread 08-02-2016, 19:05
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
The idea that our team could be blocked by 2013-style pool noodle blockers is pretty terrifying in my opinion.
FTFY Basel

But more seriously, I think a factor is how easy it is to underestimate the amount of design and planning a short robot requires. I know I didn't realize how hard the packaging would be, and I'm very impressed with my team's efforts to CAD and lay out everything so it fits. With a little less planning, a team could be in big trouble by the end of the season.
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Unread 08-02-2016, 19:09
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Re: Terrifying Karthik

Depending on where bumpers are mounted, a robot designed to go over the Rock wall may be able to go over a short robot. Anyone know off the top of their head how penalties might work for that.
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