Terrifying Karthik

[Woolly]

One of the reasons the low bar is popular is because it's in a consistent position, which means that a lot of teams will end up programming just for running under the low bar in auto and then at least trying to shoot a goal. Not only that, but due to the nature of the other defenses, the low bar has the least chance of causing an alignment issues for a shot in autonomous.

Unfortunately not all 3 robots can start there, so successful autonomous shots will be rare compared to previous years. Maybe something like 1 successful shot for every 4-6 matches at some events.
However, we may see some robots that can do 2-3 ball autos under the low bar using the balls that their alliance robots start with. That's a little bit more feasible than multi-ball auto routines that run to the center line for ammo, though for regional play it may prove to be just as effective in securing a point differential coming out of auto.

[mrnoble]

This game has so much potential for fun and interesting things to happen. What will it be like if, for 9/10 matches on Friday, all six teams on the field are trying to get through the only defense they thought they needed to build for? And what if two of them were built 1" too tall? Have we ever had a game where six robots do nothing most of the time?

[cmwilson13]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

This game has so much potential for fun and interesting things to happen. What will it be like if, for 9/10 matches on Friday, all six teams on the field are trying to get through the only defense they thought they needed to build for? And what if two of them were built 1" too tall? Have we ever had a game where six robots do nothing most of the time?

yes 2011 had lots of very low scoring games

[Mitchell1714]

Karthik is terrified 1114 will be the only team at Waterloo not to go under the low bar.

[EricH]

Karthik is afraid...

Because if what might be considered the top half of FRC teams (those who interact with other teams via CD, share information, etc), are 90% going under the low bar...

You can bet that the "bottom half" isn't going to be far behind. BUT, they don't necessarily know about the fact that being 16" tall is going to hurt you, and so there will be about 75% of the field jammed in the Neutral Zone/Secret Passages unable to move farther due to lousy planning on drivetrains, making it hard for teams who DID account for those little nuisances to get through.

That's what Karthik is afraid of: Severe congestion in the Neutral Zone, slowing down the whole game.



BTW, as I recall, I can think of one team that most definitely isn't planning to go under the low bar.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by cmwilson13

yes 2011 had lots of very low scoring games

But robots were still moving, and trying, right? I think this might be worse

[Richard Wallace]

He's terrified that the low bar will be the scene of nasty tortugas in a significant number of qualifying matches. This will tend to randomize seedings.

[PayneTrain]

I think the low bar is the MOST unique and intriguing game element in my 8 years of competing and I'm excited to see how it plays off in different places and different times of the competition season. This is a very unique game in that core movement of a robot is directly contributing points at a nigh-even pace as other challenges in the game and that alone should have provided not necessarily a shift in a team's strategic design, but the perspective they take to the game.

I would say that one of the championship-winning viable strategies involves doing as much as you can with the low bar constraint. I think there is a very slim sliver of teams that can/should/will successfully package their robot with the low bar constraint and compete at a powerhouse level, which I think is obvious.

90% is definitely not a terrifying number (as someone who embellishes for effect wrt honing strategic design in FRC with students, it feels like what he said was slight hyperbole) it certainly gives me pause. Remember, this is a game where your core movement is directly contributing points to your final score! This is giving teams an opportunity for teams that can't really surpass a Tier 0 function of core movement, right?

You'd hope so. This game features many "pinch points", both literal and in terms of the meta of Stronghold. The meta pinch points will show up in congestion of RPs in qualifications. One robot can in theory, get 1 RP by itself with a well executed strategy. It is literally impossible to get 2+ RPs by yourself without getting a win. I want to believe the RP system this year will actually be awesome, but I worry that the pinch point with capturing is going to tick off some teams in qualifications and give you a level of randomization of lesser but still nontrivial levels of 2012.

You get another point of congestion where you have elimination alliances of 3 low bar robots. Quite simply, unless the other 21 robots in the bracket are low bar robots, you're potentially at quite the disadvantage. Imagine a scenario with a 3.5 foot tall, impeccable high goal shooting robot you are playing against. There are some ways to solve that problem, but they involve tradeoffs you tried to skirt around at kickoff...

The elephant in the room is the literal pinch point. Team Icarus flew too close to the sun and locks themselves in the low bar during a match. That's probably the most terrifying thing.

I probably didn't actually guess right, but that's most of what I have gathered. If it's really that terrifying and no one has said exactly why yet, I imagine Karthik has a captive audience here.

[JesseK]

I bet it was a metaphor.

Karthik was "terrified" of what CD can degenerate into so early in the season with such a loaded and unscientific poll.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Did we choose to make a low bar capable robot? Yes. Like many others who came to this conclusion, we figured having 1 defense that was always the same was too valuable to pass up when combined with our goal of shooting in the high goal multiple times in a match.

However, we also highly prioritized defense crossing. So far it seems like we will be able to do category A, B and D defenses simply by using our drive train & intake mechanism, along with some creative geometry. The category C defenses may take an additional mechanism, but the great thing about the low bar this year is that we have a ton of weight to play with. Like 30 pounds of additional weight.

Tons of people mentioned blocked shots - why anyone is trying to shoot from 1/3 of a field away is beyond me. We're going to drive right up on the batter and shoot with our robot against the castle. It's 2014's corner shot all over again and we're taking it. I'd rather us fight your spy bot for position and win that battle than hope we sink a miracle shot through a tiny goal opening.

I'm scared every year that we'll be that team that completely blows it for an alliance, but more often than not it's not our team doing awful. I'm optimistic that our low bar, high goal shooting / hanging strategy will be successful. I'm fearful that we'll get paired with a robot that had good intentions but can do nothing effectively because they tried to package everything in a small amount of space. My guess is Karthik is too.

[hectorcastillo]

Karthik is terrified because he thought there was 16in of clearance this whole time.

[staplemonx]

This https://youtu.be/9Fj4nDOAigg is what scares the great white northern robot builder eh.

Hosers https://youtu.be/X-ZvAVcBIrQ its because he is a genius eh.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I bet it was a metaphor.

Karthik was "terrified" of what CD can degenerate into so early in the season with such a loaded and unscientific poll.

Ha. Probably.

[MrJohnston]

I fail to believe that Karthik is "terrified" of anything relating to FRC... Nay, I believe, being a good Canadian, he had just watched the Maple Leafs (who are currently looking like a borderline playoff team) lose a game in which a potential tying goal bounced off the post (a.k.a. "poll") late in the third period. He chased the tough loss down with a few Antigravity Lagers before hoping onto Chief Delphi.... Then, in a mildly inebriated state, he confused his two loves: Hockey and Robots and made a post that had nothing to do with the thread.

[DesignComp]

Karthik is afraid of the day he can't agasabapathy.