Low Bar Poll, part 2

[NShep98]

Originally Posted by Keefe2471

I'm sorry if I come off as rude, but I think that dismissing this poll (or any poll on this website) on the assumption that most of the 300 people who have already responded to this poll are on far better than average teams does not seem to do anything except cheapen the discussion.

Thoughts?

I agree completely. CD isn't some elite group where only the best teams are allowed in. You don't even need to be on a team to make an account. It is true that poll results are not necessarily a great representation of all FIRST teams, but simply being a Chief Delphi poll does not make us better.

Even so, the polls say a large amount of teams are planning on the low bar, and even if it turns out to only be half that number in reality, as I like to say, "half of a lot still tends to be a lot".

All this low bar talk is starting to get repetitive, but that just goes to show how big of a deal it may turn out to be.

[JesseK]

What if the Transformers pick the Decepticons at Champs and need a specific type of robot for the 2nd pick?

Meh. First we have to earn the spot to Champs, and that means we need to be prepared to play the game locally - however that works. I know my team, in choosing the low bar and shooter, refused to give up the basic functions of a great low goal and great intake. It was an easy decision since our targets for breaching we solved very early on. So in playing the long game (yay districts!) we know we have until District Champs to get the shooter to its highest level of play. Since we have the resources to do so, I think we'll get there.

Then we'll have to figure out the whole paradox implied by the first sentence above...

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by JesseK

What if the Transformers pick the Decepticons at Champs and need a specific type of robot for the 2nd pick?

Meh. First we have to earn the spot to Champs, and that means we need to be prepared to play the game locally - however that works. I know my team, in choosing the low bar and shooter, refused to give up the basic functions of a great low goal and great intake. It was an easy decision since our targets for breaching we solved very early on. So in playing the long game (yay districts!) we know we have until District Champs to get the shooter to its highest level of play. Since we have the resources to do so, I think we'll get there.

Then we'll have to figure out the whole paradox implied by the first sentence above...

Teams that have been preparing to take full advantage of the district schedule can be very successful but also will have very interesting types of performances. The robot we need to do well at our first event is somewhat unrecognizable compared to the robot we need to succeed at district champs. In theory we could wholesale replace our robot and then some across the 5 different competitions (if we actually do that, I might die).

Also while saying that Chief Delphi users are not representative of FIRST as a whole is not entirely a logical fallacy, a claim that they are always going to be stronger performers does have holes in it. Source.

[Drakxii]

Sorry I should have explained myself better but I am not trying to say that Chief Dehlpi teams are always better then others. I just get tired of the implications that 70-90% of the teams that selected "Yes low bar, breach capable with a shooter" are going to awful or useless.

[Caleb Sykes]

For anyone interested, I have started another thread here which will help us to gauge how representative CD polls are of FRC teams as a whole.

[OccamzRazor]

Originally Posted by sagi34

I dont agree about this, I think that this year scouting is gonna be realy fun, scouting nightmare was 2013 mission, was hard to follow all the discs that were flying around the field.

Totally agree with the scoring aspect being very easy to scout but thinking about all those low bar robots and how many field elements they need to interact with will make for a very interesting year since you will have to look for the robots that differentiate themselves from the sea of Dozer sized low bar robots. There are just so many things to look at when considering an alliance partner and I feel that it will be a challenge especially for new teams.

[MrForbes]

In addition to the complexities of scouting, I can imagine that coaching is going to be challenging. Figuring out how to deal with all the defenses with each alliance's capabilities, coordinating when who goes where and which robot pushes which other robot through and who opens the door for whom when...plus the fun of getting everyone on the batter when it's time to challenge....

[XenObliv]

I originally thought that Karthik's reasoning for being terrified was simply because there are teams that would give up "playing" the game for going under the low bar. What I mean by this is teams that would give up shooting high, scoring the boulder or climbing the castle for going under the low bar, being that it is a easy objective. But this poll seems to reflect that teams are going to attempt to do it all. Personally I think this perspective is beneficial to the FIRST community, making competition more competitive, and it allows the students to overcome the large problem of engineering a robot that can do it all. Disclaimer, if fifty percent of robots will be able to travel under the low bar then the low bar will be a highly contested team strategy. I think due to the format of the game most teams will not be able to travel through the defenses as fast as they can travel under the low bar. The best teams in the world will be able to do all the defenses as fast as they can traverse the low bar. Currently I believe the reasoning for Karthik being terrified is due to strategy, we need to ask ourselves, did Simbotics or OP Robotics build a robot around a strategy, such as a Low Bar cycle shooter (Only traveling through the Low Bar). While I think this specific strategy example is starkly unlikely for either Simbotics or OP Robotics use, I do think that Karthik is scared due to a mistake (shocking to think this is possible of either team). Stronghold will be exciting to watch.

[waialua359]

I can tell you what's really tough.
Wiring your robot with all of your control system parts in a tiny package footprint for trying to achieve a low bar passage, lift and traversing the barriers.


Here's what nobody is talking about.
What would an elite team really do?

My guess is that they focus on a superior articulating frame that traverses the defenses effortlessly, keeping a relatively high robot, doing all of the above with excellence.
Why?
Because they can easily choose a 2nd and/or 3rd partner that focuses solely on the low bar and the fact that there will be lots of them.

The biggest hint was on the poll that asked if teams were affected by the change in dimensions to one of the barriers.
Only the elite chose that they were screwed.

[XenObliv]

Originally Posted by waialua359

I can tell you what's really tough.
Wiring your robot with all of your control system parts in a tiny package footprint for trying to achieve a low bar passage, lift and traversing the barriers.


Here's what nobody is talking about.
What would an elite team really do?

My guess is that they focus on a superior articulating frame that traverses the defenses effortlessly, keeping a relatively high robot, doing all of the above with excellence.
Why?
Because they can easily choose a 2nd and/or 3rd partner that focuses solely on the low bar and the fact that there will be lots of them.

The biggest hint was on the poll that asked if teams were affected by the change in dimensions to one of the barriers.
Only the elite chose that they were screwed.

For the GREAT Low Bar Robots it should be inefficient to go across the field to the low bar.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by XenObliv

For the GREAT Low Bar Robots it should be inefficient to go across the field to the low bar.

For the great.....yes.
But for the rest, it depends just how effective they traverse those barriers.
And we will see a lot struggle with it...

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by Drakxii

Do remember this is a poll of Chief Dehlpi teams. This is not a clean slice of the general FRC population. Rather this is a highly skewed sample of teams who's BBQ is far greater then the standard FRC population.

On the other hand it could just be multiple members from the same team voting that has skewed the results the way they are. Most highly successful teams have much larger student and mentor populations, if they are all voting it will skew the results towards the crazier of robot designs.

If we assume that a fixed percentage of all FRC students and mentors are active on CD, having a larger team will disproportionately give them more votes.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by JesseK

What if the Transformers pick the Decepticons at Champs and need a specific type of robot for the 2nd pick?

Meh. First we have to earn the spot to Champs, and that means we need to be prepared to play the game locally - however that works. I know my team, in choosing the low bar and shooter, refused to give up the basic functions of a great low goal and great intake. It was an easy decision since our targets for breaching we solved very early on. So in playing the long game (yay districts!) we know we have until District Champs to get the shooter to its highest level of play. Since we have the resources to do so, I think we'll get there.

Then we'll have to figure out the whole paradox implied by the first sentence above...

Well our robot is named after an Autobot so I guess we gave to be on the other alliance.

[sagi34]

Originally Posted by OccamzRazor

Totally agree with the scoring aspect being very easy to scout but thinking about all those low bar robots and how many field elements they need to interact with will make for a very interesting year since you will have to look for the robots that differentiate themselves from the sea of Dozer sized low bar robots. There are just so many things to look at when considering an alliance partner and I feel that it will be a challenge especially for new teams.

yes, it will be a challenge and this is the fun part
much better than 2015, and even better than 2014 in my opinion, I like games that require good scouting and strategy.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Wiring your robot with all of your control system parts in a tiny package footprint for trying to achieve a low bar passage, lift and traversing the barriers.

This is the problem that I am currently solving for my team. Three clear 'shelves' so we can see everything but still fit it in a small 7" by 10" by 6" high space.