Legality of third party fans

[Sparky3D]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

That said, when inspecting the robot, I'm not going to be closely examining every fan that's attached to a speed controller. If it looks like one of the fans that's stacked up in my team's electrical closet, then I'm going to assume it's legal.

This is exactly my point. If an experienced LRI's method of enforcement is " it looks like one of the fans that's stacked up in my team's electrical closet", what is an average inspector's(aka me) method of enforcement supposed to be?

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Having built a few computers in my day, I know that not all fans are created equal. There are some out there that get much more airflow than others, despite being the same size. So the rule does have some practical applicability.

I completely understand, but my point is "Does it matter?". Even a high powered 120mm computer fan doesn't provide enough thrust to launch a boulder or deflect a frisbee. Are there safety concerns with using "some blue fan with LED's"? Is using a high powered fan an unfair advantage to some teams? I'm just trying to understand why we have the restriction to KOP fans in the first place.

[engunneer]

I'd say they aren't legal. CTR doesn't sell them, and they don't meet any of the other criteria for legality. If they happen to have the same model number as the one Andymark sells as part of first choice, I'd pass them. Otherwise, I'd bring it to my LRI.

In general, I think the fan limitations were designed to keep the playing field level on power. If you had super awesome fans on your air compressor or speed controller, you could get more power through them, therefore giving a competitive advantage.

[Rosiebotboss]

Originally Posted by Sparky3D

I completely understand, but my point is "Does it matter?". Even a high powered 120mm computer fan doesn't provide enough thrust to launch a boulder or deflect a frisbee. Are there safety concerns with using "some blue fan with LED's"? Is using a high powered fan an unfair advantage to some teams? I'm just trying to understand why we have the restriction to KOP fans in the first place.

The important point here is this: "Does it matter?" Probably not.

Is it legal? No.

Your call. Do you want to potentially miss a match?

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

The important point here is this: "Does it matter?" Probably not.

Is it legal? No.

Your call. Do you want to potentially miss a match?

Yeah. As asinine as it is, the rules are the rules.

It would be nice for next year though, maybe at least have a size and/or airflow/current restriction. Some of the higher end (read, not for PCs or even workstations/servers) brushless fans run so fast that they'll rip off fingertips ... and unless you had grilles or the fans actively controlled (to only be on in Auto/Teleop), which could also mandated in the rules, such fans wouldn't be safe for robots that often get carried while booting up.

---

That said, the fans are still fine for off-season use... before the modern battery rules (which are like what I described above, only for batteries), there was only one (and later two) batteries one could use. Up to 2006 it was Exide (IIRC, I wasn't in FIRST that far back), then 2007-2009 it was MK only, with Enersys batteries becoming the new KOP brand in 2010 as a second legal choice along side the MK units. What teams would do is use the "legal" batteries for competition and use those and other batteries of the same specifications for everything else. At least in my old team's (1747) case, we had a local electronics supply for a sponsor and they carried PowerSonic batteries, of which an equivalent was available.

The same could be done with the fans, as the rules only apply at competition. In fact, if you have legal fans on talons already that aren't going to see competition use (in an old/demo bot or the like), I'd swap them, which would save the cost of buying new legal fans. Sure they'd be used, but that way the fans wouldn't be sitting without a use.

[SamM]

We're having trouble finding info on fans from previous KOPs.

Does anyone have a manufacturer/model number list of what was given in previous KOPs?

Were 80mm fans given in any of them?

Thanks!

[Taylor]

A rookie member and I had a similar discussion just this past weekend.
We came to the conclusion that big, important companies donate lots of gizmos and money to FIRST, and (partially) in return, they get to be the exclusive gizmo of FIRST Robotics.

Yes, the companies are donating their goods and services to a very good cause - they're also very intelligently building a customer base for years to come.

Think of all the collegiate senior projects that use IFI or CTRE or PTC or NI products (for example) we've seen recently that may have otherwise used other components. This means FIRST students have been acclimated to prefer the FIRST suppliers' products, which means that when these young ladies and gentlemen start their own companies, they'll be predisposed to use FIRST suppliers' products, which means the initial donations will have been very worthwhile.

Next time you listen to the radio or watch television, pay attention to the types of commercials played. Dollars to doughnuts, in a single break, you'll only hear/see one commercial from any given type of local business (law firm, auto dealership, florist, etc.). Exclusivity is a huge negotiating tool.