Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct

[lnex1357]

Has anyone in the FRC community used the regulators in the link below in an FRC application and can comment on any reliability/performance issues, technical concerns, or legality concerns that I may be missing for FRC use?

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...Series)/AR-213

[rfolea]

I work at AutomationDirect and am happy to answer any questions.

The regulator works great and is used in industry all over the world.

I think the issue you are going to run into is the rules (R77i) specify the max output pressure of any regulator used has to be 60psi. This one goes to 130psi so if I am reading the rules correctly, this would not be legal.

Of course, if it is downstream from a 60psi regulator I wonder if that still applies ... the rules don't see to allow for that ...

[martin417]

Originally Posted by rfolea

...I think the issue you are going to run into is the rules (R77i) specify the max output pressure of any regulator used has to be 60psi. This one goes to 130psi so if I am reading the rules correctly, this would not be legal.......

Rick, the way I read that rule is that the regulator must be set to a mximum of 60 PSI. I know that the regulators that used to be included in the KOP could be set to a higher pressure, but were checked at inspection to verify the setting. It could be that the rules are different this year, I'm not sure.

Also, last year we used one of your in-line regulators with push-to-connect fittings. I can't find those on your website. What was the part number? I remember a line of gauges and valves along similar lines.

Edit: here it is: I found it. It was not under regultors, but under special purpose fittings.

Thanks in advance,

Martin

[GeeTwo]

Emphasis mine:

Originally Posted by R82

“Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60 psi and must be provided through a single primary adjustable, relieving, pressure regulator.
Norgren regulator P/N: R07-100-RNEA or Monnier P/N: 101-3002-1 recommended.

Looking at the spec sheet, I don't see anything about this being a relieving regulator. That is, if the low side pressure is increased to greater than 60 psi (e.g. through mechanical compression of a cylinder that pushes air back through the system), the regulator is required to relieve that excess pressure.

[rfolea]

Martin - Thanks for answering the question for me. Those mini fittings are awesome ...

GeeTwo - I'll find the answer on that .. stay tuned ...

[rfolea]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Emphasis mine:



Looking at the spec sheet, I don't see anything about this being a relieving regulator. That is, if the low side pressure is increased to greater than 60 psi (e.g. through mechanical compression of a cylinder that pushes air back through the system), the regulator is required to relieve that excess pressure.

Turns out they ARE venting regulators. See the description here where it says " Excess pressure is vented to atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. "

[rfolea]

Originally Posted by martin417

Rick, the way I read that rule is that the regulator must be set to a mximum of 60 PSI. I know that the regulators that used to be included in the KOP could be set to a higher pressure, but were checked at inspection to verify the setting. It could be that the rules are different this year, I'm not sure.

Yeah I always read it that way too, but in re-reading it before posting here, I felt it could be interpreted either way and wasn't sure.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

[Jon Stratis]

Take a look at the blue box under R82 - the recommended primary regulators haven't changed from previous years. They are capable of more than 60 PSI, but have to be set to 60 PSI or lower. From what I've seen in this thread and in documentation, this regulator appears to be functionally equivalent to those ones.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by rfolea

I think the issue you are going to run into is the rules (R77i) specify the max output pressure of any regulator used has to be 60psi. This one goes to 130psi so if I am reading the rules correctly, this would not be legal.

Of course, if it is downstream from a 60psi regulator I wonder if that still applies ... the rules don't see to allow for that ...

Originally Posted by rfolea

Yeah I always read it that way too, but in re-reading it before posting here, I felt it could be interpreted either way and wasn't sure.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Take a look at the blue box under R82 - the recommended primary regulators haven't changed from previous years. They are capable of more than 60 PSI, but have to be set to 60 PSI or lower. From what I've seen in this thread and in documentation, this regulator appears to be functionally equivalent to those ones.

Even more direct is:

Originally Posted by R75

All pneumatic items must be COTS pneumatic devices rated by their manufacturers for working pressure of at least 120psi (with the exception of R77-D).

If the rated output pressure of the regulator were 60 psi or less, it would violate R75.

Also, yes, I see now that it is relieving. I was checking bullet points and going back to that tab I see I was searching for "releiv" rather than "reliev".

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Rick,
To meet the "relieving" specification, the regulator must vent any pressure that exceeds the set pressure on the output side of the regulator. If a larger actuator were to be pushed by a robot collision, the pressure forced back onto the working pressure system that would exceed 60 psi must vent to atmosphere the excess pressure.

[bachster]

If the rated output pressure of the regulator were 60 psi or less, it would violate R75.

I agree that the use of the word "working" is a bit confusing, but it is possible to have the outlet pressure range be 60 psi max while the regulator itself is rated for higher pressures. For example, the Norgren R07-100-RNEA (recommended by the blue box) has an outlet pressure adjustment range of 5-50 psig but a maximum pressure of 300 psig.

[bachster]

FIRST has provided guidance to the LRI's that R77-I means that the published specifications of the regulator must indicate that its outlet pressure range is adjustable only up to 60 psi or less. Unfortunately, we didn't receive this guidance in time to pass it on to teams prior to Stop Build Day.

This would make the regulator linked in the OP as well as the inline regulator linked by Martin417 illegal. We did provide feedback that the requirement wording is somewhat ambiguous - hopefully we will see this clarified in a Team Update.

Unfortunately, teams who interpreted the rule differently and used a regulator that doesn't meet the requirement of R77-I should make plans to switch it out for a legal regulator upon unbagging. The recommended Norgren R07-100-RNEA is currently in stock at AndyMark.

R77-I: Pressure regulators with a maximum outlet pressure of no more than 60 psi

[Holtzman]

Originally Posted by bachster

FIRST has provided guidance to the LRI's that R77-I means that the published specifications of the regulator must indicate that its outlet pressure range is adjustable only up to 60 psi or less. Unfortunately, we didn't receive this guidance in time to pass it on to teams prior to Stop Build Day.
.

Katie,

If that were really the case, then both of the recommended regulators listed in the blue box as recommended would also be illegal as they both can be adjusted to provide a working pressure well above 60 psi.

Why would we want to force teams to use a regulator with a published rated pressure below 60 psi, and then have them set it above that rated pressure? Something doesn't make sense here.

The manual currently states

R77 I. Pressure regulators with a maximum outlet pressure of no more than 60 psi

R82 “Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60 psi and must be provided through a single primary adjustable, relieving, pressure regulator. Norgren regulator P/N: R07-100-RNEA or Monnier P/N: 101-3002-1 recommended.

It doesn't say anything about a maximum published outlet pressure. It does list two recommended regulators, but doesn't say that teams must use these. The fact that it does say "Recommended" indicates that others are allowed.

The regulator posted by the OP is perfectly suitable for a FRC Robot. My employer uses these exact regulators on industrial applications without issue. In my mind, it’s legal according to the robot rules as currently written. If this rule does get changed, I would encourage whoever is making these changes or clarifications to defer to someone with more experience with pneumatics. Changing the rules now to force teams to replace a perfectly suitable pressure regulator is pointless and will cause nothing but grief for teams and inspectors alike.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by bachster

FIRST has provided guidance to the LRI's that R77-I means that the published specifications of the regulator must indicate that its outlet pressure range is adjustable only up to 60 psi or less.

I have to say this is one of those irritatingly ambiguous rules. The Norgen regulator provided in the KOP can be turned up higher than 60 PSI despite what it ratings say. One of the main reason that we use the KOP regulator is to avoid this trying to figure out what this rule means.

With the usual disclaimer about past years, when working as robot inspector, one of things we were asked to look for in the queuing line was the air pressure. Wasn't unusual to find the working pressure slightly over 60 PSI & occasionally substantially over. Easy to check for & easy to fix.

[bachster]

Tyler and Frank,

I don't disagree, and I brought up similar reasoning to FIRST. I thought I'd pass on what has been communicated to LRI's and provide an (admittedly inadequate) early warning that this interpretation may become official soon. I'd encourage you to use the channels available (Q&A and email to frcteams@usfirst.org) to get official clarification and provide your feedback to FIRST.