Defensive robots

[pandamonium]

blockers are overrated and will not be used effectively in this years game at high levels of play! Short robots can create devices called blocker blockers with their 15 inches. Even if blocking works blockers can not block in auto and they also can not block during the last 20 seconds. Blockers run a huge risk of penalties as well. As a coach I do not plan on having a robot blocking I would much prefer they jam up ball collection or protect the offensive threats on our alliance. A great third robot needs to score 7 in auto from the spy bot low goal and reach. During tele-op they play the neutral zone then cross one defense and get on the batter.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

I think that some robots that were designed for Low Bar will be cheesecaked to have tall blockers if there are alot of teams that shoot high goal shots along a low trajectory from the "safe zone" of the outerworks.

Now this, I could see happening for sure.

[BoilerMentor]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Now this, I could see happening for sure.

I don't ever remember this happening at competition.

In all seriousness though I can see it too. With some of the crazy ball velocities, the cheesecake may have to be a little stiffer than a tacked on pool noodle.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by BoilerMentor

I don't ever remember this happening at competition.

In all seriousness though I can see it too. With some of the crazy ball velocities, the cheesecake may have to be a little stiffer than a tacked on pool noodle.

You don't need to rob a ball of its full momentum, just deflect it off course.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

You don't need to rob a ball of its full momentum, just deflect it off course.

Yes, with a pool noodle, it will easily do the job.
That high goal opening is just way too small to have any kind of deflection not be effective.

[jeremylee]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

You don't need to rob a ball of its full momentum, just deflect it off course.

And then go pick it up and deliver it to your secret passage.

[Louisiana Jones]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Now this, I could see happening for sure.

We tested defense with our kitbot and 2015 robot. The kitbot was geared to approximately twice the speed of our 2015 robot. In the videos you can see several times where the driver of our 2015 robot becomes overly aggressive and would have drawn a penalty. With a little coaching I think that this can be avoided. I also think that with a defensive robot in the courtyard it will be very hard to get a clean shot at the goal unless you are protected in the outerworks. We also noticed that the defensive robots could potentially trap against the batter robots who score low goals by blocking them in once they maneuver around the defender. The driver of the defensive robot will also have a much better view of the action which could also be a big advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQcjMYkn0iM

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Louisiana Jones

We tested defense with our kitbot and 2015 robot. The kitbot was geared to approximately twice the speed of our 2015 robot. In the videos you can see several times where the driver of our 2015 robot becomes overly aggressive and would have drawn a penalty. With a little coaching I think that this can be avoided. I also think that with a defensive robot in the courtyard it will be very hard to get a clean shot at the goal unless you are protected in the outerworks. We also noticed that the defensive robots could potentially trap against the batter robots who score low goals by blocking them in once they maneuver around the defender. The driver of the defensive robot will also have a much better view of the action which could also be a big advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQcjMYkn0iM

In my experience the overlap in the Venn Diagram of "robot really only capable for defense" and "well coached" is virtually nonexistent.

[D_Price]

I feel like defensive robots WILL be pivotal especially late in the season into Championships.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by D_Price

I feel like defensive robots WILL be pivotal especially late in the season into Championships. Due to only being able to have 2 robots in the offensive zone at a time. (if i read the rules correctly.)

You didn't read the rules correctly

You might be thinking of the inverse of G26.

Also the existence of such a rule makes no logical sense. It would penalize two actions explicitly laid out in match logistics: crossing/scoring in autonomous, and challenging on the batter at the end.

[Boltman]

Coming from being a pure defensive bot two years ago... my observations on 2016.

Actual blocking of shots is hard when you are having to defend multiple goals. As in 2014 and 2016. (Low and High)

Of course in that game we had much higher than 54" extension height since at 76" but could not be as wide since it had to be in that cylinder so it was thin.

But very similar with needing to defend high and low goals.

We had great drivers and we were very effective at low goal blocking and to an extent high goal and got completely hammered in the process (scars) , we were among the most durable bots at the worlds that year, even with that parts got bent and broken.... I fear for this year low bots that are low goal scorers only against a dedicated durable defensive bot. I have a feeling many low bots are nearly as durable" like we were and will get hammered coming out of batter with hardly any vision to drive on that far side of field. I can see bots that do low goal getting beaten up by a defender legitimately and without getting fouls.

In 2014, we were not as effective as blocking was the high goal. When faced with three offensive bots there was no possible way to fully defend the high goals we were maybe blocking average of 1 shot a game., even with help from other two bots sometimes harassing the other alliance. Most shots of on our alliance of course scored high. I think we were exactly a 54" high metal rectangle with a high goal extension and side arms to block low goal. So similar in design to a defensive bot this year using 15" extensions...we were rookies and our bot was kitbot slow. Especially at worlds every single bot was faster it seemed we got killed. We did well ended up 23/60 in regional and killed in the worlds.

Which brings me to my point, most defensive bots this year IMO will be slower bots that a rookie team entered, they like us made the calculated decision to be different. I only saw one high end defensive bot in St Louis in 2014 that was marginally more effective than us and still ended up lower ranked.

I think this year we may see some defense but as long as teams divide up the offensive attack that bot cannot defend all three. I also suspect in the heat of defending there will be a very high chance of fouling as that bot is defending not 4 feet away but most likely 12-13 feet away and its hard to judge robots when their bumper clear the outer works. A couple fouls and the defensive strategy goes down the tubes as fouls are killer, forcing for most less aggressive play and allowing high shots from just past outer works.

So in summary I think defense will be played sparingly and also be somewhat ineffective like in 2014, I see a lot of similarities when it comes to defense. Its a very similar each year to defend low and high only or try to score t...most teams will pick not so true (non-scoring) defenders will be rare.

Plus the fact you can only have one bot defend so no help also is a difficult decision for an alliance to commit to that strategy of trying to prevent RP/points rather than earn RP/points and winning the game for another.

Going to be interesting to say the least...I'll be looking for defensive bots to see how they do this year.

I think the real defense issues for most teams will be simply lack of vision/automation. Its hard to score with all those defenses obscuring the drivers view of primary goals, unless you have a highly accurate semi/fully automated shooter

[sagi34]

Lets take an alliance with 2 offensive bots and 1 defender, facing an alliance with 3 offensive bots.
the alliance with the 2 offensive bots will always have 2 bots ready to shoot without anyone trying to stop them.
the alliance with the 3 bots will have 3 bots trying to score while 1 bot is trying to prevent them from doing it, it means 4 robots on less than 1/3 field when 3 of them are trying to find a good spot to score and 1 is trying to stop them, it will be very messy and all the 3 robots will make less points, very hard to the drivers and I think that in this case the 2 offensive robots alliance will win.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by sagi34

Lets take an alliance with 2 offensive bots and 1 defender, facing an alliance with 3 offensive bots.
the alliance with the 2 offensive bots will always have 2 bots ready to shoot without anyone trying to stop them.
the alliance with the 3 bots will have 3 bots trying to score while 1 bot is trying to prevent them from doing it, it means 4 robots on less than 1/3 field when 3 of them are trying to find a good spot to score and 1 is trying to stop them, it will be very messy and all the 3 robots will make less points, very hard to the drivers and I think that in this case the 2 offensive robots alliance will win.

That was not the case in 2014 so I don't believe it to be the case in 2016..especially at higher levels of bots.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Boltman

That was not the case in 2014 so I don't believe it to be the case in 2016..especially at higher levels of bots.

2014's scoring system was such that you needed 3 assists in order to be competitive at high levels. This year isn't comparable in that regard.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

2014's scoring system was such that you needed 3 assists in order to be competitive at high levels. This year isn't comparable in that regard.

With limited time in the game I do not see how a defensive bot shifts the odds in their alliance's favor overall. There are 16-18 scoring plays that either involve crossing a defense twice or cycling a SINGLE ball. All in 135 seconds. For either ranking or huge elimination points.

With only two bots that puts cycle times in into the danger zone to do 16-18 plays with 16 single actions that take 8.43 seconds average for one bot to complete 16.43 seconds for two bots 25.31 seconds for three bots working together.

16.43 average cycle is asking a lot of two bots to either cross a defense twice -or obtain a single boulder (perhaps from opponents castle location to your secret passage) and successfully deliver a boulder accurately to weaken the opponents castle again. OF course if every bot every time crossed and shot it would be more doable but still very difficult to ensure it happens every time with one bot let alone all three bots.

Also consider last 20 seconds is endgame time not a lot of scoring going on as teams are scrambling to get on batter and climb.

Its the same as 2014 just different, more to do and no obvious multiplier action, more single actions that all take time and I think a well coordinated team of 3 beats 2 and a defender...we'll see.