Fully breach multiple defenses or cross all defenses first?

[TimTheGreat]

When thinking about strategy our team came up with an interesting question. Is it better to try to breach (pass through a defense twice) a single defense before moving on to the next, or pass through each defense once to get the first passover points before going for the full breach?

Thoughts?

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by TimTheGreat

When thinking about strategy our team came up with an interesting question. Is it better to try to breach (pass through a defense twice) a single defense before moving on to the next, or pass through each defense once to get the first passover points before going for the full breach?

Thoughts?

Is this from the perspective on alliance or a single robot? If per-robot, I might start on the defenses that are harder for my partners. Also, am I shooting boulders into the tower after crossing?

If you damage a single defense (cross twice consecutively) you might not have to turn and move to a different defense, instead just crossing, returning, crossing, and returning again, then moving sideways to the next one.

[mentos54]

I feel that if you are planning on going for the breach (and your allies are not assisting) going over, back, and over again is more efficient, especially for the driving challenges. This means you don't need to line yourself up again, as long as your robot is capable of going over both ways.

[Pault]

You get points for crossing a defense the second time, just not the third. So it really is just a matter of which undamaged defense is most convenient to cross.

Also, just to clarify terminology, because it is actually very important to understanding the rules:

• A defense that has not yet been crossed is an undamaged defense with 2 Strength
• A defense that has been crossed once is an undamaged defense with 1 Strength
• A defense that has been crossed twice or more is a damaged defense
• A breach occurs when 4 of the 5 defenses have been damaged

[JacobD]

The general goal that I think most teams will want to achieve is scoring 1 boulder per defense cross. This way they can get 8 boulders scored while damaging 4 outer works. If their teammates help them, then they will easily do it. But otherwise, it is a difficult goal but possible. These efficient cycles will definitely help an alliance win and increase your ranking points.

[Bob Steele]

You will have to wait until Champs to get Passover points. Or at least the Friday before...

[GeeTwo]

It depends on your robot configuration and your alliance partners. If your robot is able to cross a defense both ways with equal ease, doing a triple (or quadruple) traversal to damage the defense is probably the most efficient as it reduces the need to maneuver. With defenses that your robot must pass in one direction or the other, you need to figure out whether it's quicker to pivot 180 degrees or steer over a bit and "back" over another (probably adjacent) defense. Which is quicker is a function of defense placement and your specific drive train. When you factor in an alliance partner who is also breaching, the dynamic shifts again.

As also noted above, unless you are the lone sapper 'bot on your alliance and are just driving hard for the ranking point, you'll probably want to bring boulders with you on many of your defense crossings.

[tindleroot]

The first and second passes of defenses are absolutely equivalent. Proof? You earn an equal number of points on both crossings. You cannot create a breach without BOTH crosses on 4 defenses. Assuming you score (or hand off) a boulder during the crossing, you will always get the boulder to the courtyard regardless of the first or second cross.

You start losing efficiency when you cross defenses for the third time. Now you are earning no crossing points, where crossing a different defense for the first or second time would be earning points and advancing towards the breach. As long as you are crossing an UNDAMAGED defense (zero or one cross only), then you are advancing the strategic agenda equally. After all, both crosses must happen on four defenses in order for a breach to happen.

Now that the theoretical stuff is over, time for the practical stuff.

(Hopefully) three robots will be crossing defenses throughout the match. Say that your two alliance partners combined will be crossing the B and D defenses and the low bar. Then, you would want to cross the A and C defenses first, if possible. If you crossed the low bar (for example) first, then one of your alliances partners would be crossing the low bar for no points, which is a waste. In general, you want to make sure that all three robots are crossing undamaged defenses for as long as possible. After you can no longer do so, then choose to cross the quickest defenses after that point.

To answer your original question, the only thing you would be saving by choosing a specific order of defense crossing would be the time for your robot to move around the field. Strategically, there is no difference since every single cross is necessary at some point in the match in order to achieve the breach.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by tindleroot

...every single cross is necessary at some point in the match in order to achieve the breach.

You only need to damage four defenses to achieve a breach. Crossing and damaging the fifth defense is still worth the 5 points per crossing for the first two crossings (10 in auto), but does not affect the breach.

[tindleroot]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

You only need to damage four defenses to achieve a breach. Crossing and damaging the fifth defense is still worth the 5 points per crossing for the first two crossings (10 in auto), but does not affect the breach.

Sorry for the lack of clarification, I was kind of just referencing the 8 required crosses. That being said, an alliance that crosses all 10 will have a better shot at winning...

[rich2202]

IMHO, each team should pick the defense that they are best capable of handling, and do it twice. "Best" being an alliance wide decision. For example, Portcullis may be at the bottom of your list, but you may be the only robot in the alliance that can do it.

1) Assign the first 3 defenses that way.
2) Of the remaining 2, pick the one that the alliance likes best, and any team (after they defeated their assigned defense) goes after that one until it is defeated.
3) If any of the top 3 are still undefeated, go after that one.
4) Then go after defense #5

Exception: If your bot is the only one in your alliance that can defeat Defense #5, AND things are going swimmingly, then your bot can skip 2 and 3, and go to 5. In essence, you are trusting your team (after they have proven themselves, and things are going swimmingly) to finish defeating the first 4 defenses, and you spend your time with the one they can't do.

Note: The best shooting robot that is also fast and can easily pick up Boulders should be assigned the quickest defense. Their job will be to score shooting points while the other two are busy crossing defenses.

[Hitchhiker 42]

I would say first breach the defenses your alliance partners can't do. Cross 'em twice. In the meantime, if your partners are shooting, they will have to cross something, so it will wear the easy defenses down (save time for you). Finish off the defenses that need to be done after that.

[GeeTwo]

Also, remember that even if no single robot can cross the category C (door) defenses, two robots with functional drive trains working together can do so. Three can damage it. Decide before the match if this is necessary and when it will happen.

[BotDesigner]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Also, remember that even if no single robot can cross the category C (door) defenses, two robots with functional drive trains working together can do so. Three can damage it. Decide before the match if this is necessary and when it will happen.

Why would you need 3 robots to damage it? I think 2 could easily do it by themselves in a single trip.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

Why would you need 3 robots to damage it? I think 2 could easily do it by themselves in a single trip.

Not if they don't have the manipulation required