Stop Work / Robot Bag Contents

[bdaroz]

We're a rookie team looking for some advice on how the ROBOT bag and WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE work in practice. We're furiously working to finish our last design elements and get the robot rolling but are becoming increasingly concerned we're going to come up short.

Are there any restrictions as to what can be included in the bag, and is that excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE?

For example, if we have a ball capture mechanism that's almost, but not quite complete/functional, can we bag it to be completed at competition and exempt it from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, or do we need to keep it off the bot / out of the bag and count it toward our 30 lbs?

What about pre-fabricated parts (spares) in the bag?

We're a little confused at how "open" the bag and tag rules are (as far as contents go) when so many of the other rules are exceptionally specific.

Thanks!

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by bdaroz

We're a rookie team looking for some advice on how the ROBOT bag and WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE work in practice. We're furiously working to finish our last design elements and get the robot rolling but are becoming increasingly concerned we're going to come up short.

Are there any restrictions as to what can be included in the bag, and is that excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE?

For example, if we have a ball capture mechanism that's almost, but not quite complete/functional, can we bag it to be completed at competition and exempt it from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, or do we need to keep it off the bot / out of the bag and count it toward our 30 lbs?

What about pre-fabricated parts (spares) in the bag?

We're a little confused at how "open" the bag and tag rules are (as far as contents go) when so many of the other rules are exceptionally specific.

Thanks!

1) Any work that does not need to be done between now and the practice day at your event can be left in the bag and not count toward your withholding

2) You shouldn't bag a whole additional robot in your bag, but I'm unaware of any condition on where you can't bag parts and even subassemblies on Tuesday.

3) It's ok to be confused about withholding allowance rules; of all of the quirks rookies have to learn on top of the other struggles that come with building a program from the ground up, withholding allowance is probably the worst quirk as a result of two competing competition structures working in a... unique system.

As a team based out of New York, you are not allowed to open your bag in your shop between 12AM EST on February 24th and the last day of your last competition. You can only work on your robot during events when the pits are open.

If you are not planning on building anything between now and your event, you may want to keep that mechanism out of the bag. If you are, be aware of all of the rules surrounding withholding allowance (COTS parts, etc). Remember that your operator console (driver station) and bumpers are examples of two things integral to competing that do not count toward your WA.

[rich2202]

> We're furiously working to finish our last design elements and get the robot
> rolling but are becoming increasingly concerned we're going to come up
> short.

The only difference between you and an experienced team is that the experienced team is not as "concerned". the withholding allowance does allow you to keep working on PART of the robot.

> Are there any restrictions as to what can be included in the bag,

While all things are possible, not all things are profitable. There is no restriction on what can go in the bag. There is a practical limitation on the size of the bag. You can put your Team Standard in the bag, but that would not be useful.

> and is that excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE?

There are no restrictions on what you can put in the bag, so the answer is: not applicable.

What needs to go in the bag is:
1) Anything you want to put on the Field.
2) Spares for anything you want to put on the field.

Exceptions are:
a) Anything COTS. Make sure you understand what is COTS and what is not.
b) Batteries and Bumpers
c) Up to the Withholding Allowance for non-COTS parts that may go on your robot.

> For example, if we have a ball capture mechanism that's almost, but not
> quite complete/functional, can we bag it to be completed at competition
> and exempt it from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE

Yes. that is allowed.

> or do we need to keep it off the bot / out of the bag and count it toward
> our 30 lbs?

That is allowed too.

Note: Let's say the assembly is really heavy. Maybe you make an exact duplicate, and bag the partial assembly (call that Part A). then you finish the assembly before your next competition. Remove Part A (it is already in the bag), and bring the remainder to attach to Part A that is already in the bag.

Note2: If you are in more than one competition, or if you advance to the Championship, then you can bag the entire completed robot after the 1st competition, and bring along an entirely different withholding allowance to the next competition. Maybe more spare parts, or an improvement.

> What about pre-fabricated parts (spares) in the bag?

Put them in the bag too. While there is a 120# weight limit for the robot that is placed on the field, there is no weight limit for your bag.

> We're a little confused at how "open" the bag and tag rules are (as far as
> contents go) when so many of the other rules are exceptionally specific.

The rules for the bag are fairly wide open - whatever you want to put in the bag that fits in the bag. Also, you must be able to move the bag without breaking the bag.

The "closed" part of the rule is what is not in the bag. So, if you can't find a rule that lets you keep it out of the bag, then put it in the bag.

FYI:

During load-in when you drop off your robot and pit stuff, leave the robot in the bag accessible, and leave out your Bag&Tag sheet (tape it to the robot bag is good - placing it in a piece of plastic first is even better).

If you don't need to open the bag until you are at a competition, the rule is: Wait until you are cleared by the Robot Inspectors to open your bag. There will be a sign on your bag when you first come to the Pits on the first morning of competition. It will either tell you it is ok to open your bag, or, you need to talk to a Robot Inspector. If you need to talk to a Robot Inspector, go to the Robot Inspection Desk, and ask what is the problem. Maybe they could not find your Bag&Tag sheet.

There are rules that allow you to open your bag before a competition. If one of those exceptions apply to you, make sure you note it on your Bag&Tag sheet, and comply with the rules of the exception.

[bdaroz]

Thank you both -- great information and gives us a lot of flexibility!

[Chief Hedgehog]

And as you are bagging - here is a short video of how to bag a robot safely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DH1tsxE60A

[jds2001]

Also, keep in mind that there is no limit (that I'm aware of) to the QUANTITY of bags - i.e. you can have two bags if you want (I recall that from Q&A last year, and I don't see anything in 5.3 of the admin manual restricting you to a single bag - in fact it notes that two are provided).

There is obviously a practical limit - you can't go into the event with 100 bags full of stuff!

[bdaroz]

Originally Posted by jds2001

There is obviously a practical limit - you can't go into the event with 100 bags full of stuff!

But we get a 10' x 10' x ∞ space in the pits right?!

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by bdaroz

But we get a 10' x 10' x ∞ space in the pits right?!

I suggest you check 4.7.4.3 SPACE REGULATIONS in the Admin Manual

[GeeTwo]

The rules on bagging and withholding are pretty clear, but they are spottily enforced and even assuming you follow them scrupulously, there are layers of strategy possible. For the most parts, these layers are based on strategy and how well you've managed to do during build season.

If you have a mechanism that is critical to your strategy and that really needs work as you're getting ready to bag, pull it and make it some or all of it part your Withholding Allowance (WA).

Try to bag as much stuff as you are reasonably sure is ready for competition. As noted above, spare parts are not really intended to be in the bag, but there does not seem to be a rule against them, so carry on!

If you do build an updated mechanism between bag and an event, try to consider the tradeoff between showing up with a bunch of COTS items that can be built in the pit to match your new mechanism (does not apply against WA at all) and showing up with a pre-built mechanism (applies fully against WA). In many cases, you may be able to pack about half of your mechanism's weight as manufactured parts (part of WA) and half as COTS parts (exempt from WA) and do a tiny bit of building in the pits. For example, this year we plan to bag mounting brackets, bars, springs, and structure of our launcher, but to pull the launch arm for tweaking on our practice robot. The pneumatic cylinders that we are still awaiting will be brought in as COTS parts if we do not get them in time to bag, but we may have custom mounting hardware or similar.

I also suspect that we shall include a good fraction of our ball pickup mechanism in our WA.

If we did not have so much WA weight already tied up in tweaking core functions, we would probably try to develop a scaling mechanism to include in the WA.

Edit: The pits are nominally only 10 feet high. At some events they may only be 8 feet square laterally. Unless you are intimately familiar with your specific events' venue, plan to be able to contract a bit.

[dradel]

Quick question, is your team going to a regional, or district event?

[bdaroz]

Thanks everyone - we've got a good plan in place. (If it fits, it ships.)

Originally Posted by dradel

Quick question, is your team going to a regional, or district event?

We'll be at the Tech Valley Regional this year.