Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Your problem is that you asked ahead of time. Now when you show up, your LRI could say: I replied that they were not legal, so go fix them.

However, if you just showed up at a competition, they would be hard pressed to DQ you for only that. They want teams to play, and that does not cause a safety or material rule infraction (like extending 30" past your frame perimeter).

The old "beg forgiveness" argument. In this case, it's easy enough (but not pretty) to fix at an event, so they would be justified in asking for a change based on the LRI and CRI (Al) ruling.

As an RI myself, I'd rule that they need to be changed, so I also await the CRI ruling.

[Kevin Sevcik]

To take a different tack related to the ambiguity of that symbol, if you showed each of those symbols individually to a person and asked them what they saw, your answers would be: "4", "6", "7", and "Oh, cool logo".

Honestly, if someone really wanted to bend that rule to the absolute legal limit, they'd show up with Roman numerals or something. Thereby forcing the gdc to amend that to "Arabic numerals".

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

To take a different tack related to the ambiguity of that symbol, if you showed each of those symbols individually to a person and asked them what they saw, your answers would be: "4", "6", "7", and "Oh, cool logo".

Honestly, if someone really wanted to bend that rule to the absolute legal limit, they'd show up with Roman numerals or something. Thereby forcing the gdc to amend that to "Arabic numerals".

I agree with Kevin, if this showed up at my event I would make the team change it. The line is pretty clear in the rules and allowing teams to bend that rule is asking for trouble. Such as teams having their name in every number, or custom graphics, etc. If that was the GDC's intent they would have put it in the rules.

[Whippet]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Honestly, if someone really wanted to bend that rule to the absolute legal limit, they'd show up with Roman numerals or something.

I remember two years ago a team posted on the Q&A asking to use roman numerals on their bumpers, and they were ruled illegal.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by rich2202

Your problem is that you asked ahead of time. Now when you show up, your LRI could say: I replied that they were not legal, so go fix them.

However, if you just showed up at a competition, they would be hard pressed to DQ you for only that. They want teams to play, and that does not cause a safety or material rule infraction (like extending 30" past your frame perimeter).

Others on our team had this opinion as well. I am absolutely against this train of thought. If I am going to operate in a gray area, I am going to do everything in my power to shine light on the issue so others find clarity in the situation.

If [insert elite team] intentionally hid a questionable inspection item (not counting game mechanics that offer advantages i.e. 469 in 2010) and I was inspecting them it would rub me the wrong way. I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. The "oh well we're at competition and it's too late to fix it" attitude is immoral and not in the spirit of FIRST.

[dtengineering]

I started out making the argument that although I could clearly read the zero in the team number, I felt it was illegal because the logo contained symbols that were not numerals, and non-numeric symbols are not allowed.

However after further review, I think I convinced myself that it is legal.

The manual states in section 1.4:

The intent of this manual is that the text means exactly, and only, what it says. Please avoid interpreting the text based on assumptions about intent, implementation of past rules, or how a situation might be in “real life.” There are no hidden requirements or restrictions. If you’ve read everything, you know everything.

When I read the section requiring only numerals on the bumpers, the manual does NOT require the numerals to be written in the standard western arabic numeral system. We've all assumed that it does... but it doesn't SAY that it does. Yet, "If you've read everything, you know everything." Clearly the numeral system is not defined, and therefore intentionally open to interpretation.

So, I'd probably pass it and submit a Q&A seeking further guidance, and suggesting that the manual be adjusted to specify the legal numeral system(s).

As a side point, I'd probably suggest that there be a mention that the team number be written in base ten as well... now that I think of it, I'm sort of surprised that no one has shown up with their team number in binary or hex...

Jason

For a list of some of the more creative numeral systems that could be applied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

I'm thinking Ancient Egyptian numerals would be awesome... (I think I was composing this as the comments about Roman numerals were added, above...)

[michchinn]

There is no need to assume the intent of the rule when it’s very clearly given to you.
Here is the blue box beneath R28:

The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

It’s difficult to argue that many announcers could recognize Egyptian numerals on sight.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

When I read the section requiring only numerals on the bumpers, the manual does NOT require the numerals to be written in the standard western arabic numeral system. We've all assumed that it does... but it doesn't SAY that it does. Yet, "If you've read everything, you know everything." Clearly the numeral system is not defined, and therefore intentionally open to interpretation.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by michchinn

It’s difficult to argue that many announcers could recognize Egyptian numerals on sight.

But can the same be said for our logo? I'm too biased to give a fair assessment, plus I know our logo and team number like the back of hand. It's actually my phone background...

A lot of people have responded that they couldn't tell the hex was meant to be a "0". That's understandable, but I would argue not enough to say it's illegal (that's the bias...). My question then becomes: To what extent is creativity legal? If not our complete logo, then how about just a hex outline? If we take the letters out does it become legal?

I want to know where the line is so I can push right up next to it without crossing.

[michchinn]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

To what extent is creativity legal? If not our complete logo, then how about just a hex outline? If we take the letters out does it become legal?

I want to know where the line is so I can push right up next to it without crossing.

As you said earlier

This particular question has been debated by multiple LRI's and I've heard different opinions.

From CD, you’re always going to get varying opinions - but it doesn’t actually matter what anyone on here says. Unless you can get clarification through a Q and A on your specific strategy (good luck) or a general clarification about the rules, you will be leaving it to the discretion of the RIs at your events as to whether or not its legal. The choice to change it now or have the possibility of changing it at an event is up to your discretion.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

A lot of people have responded that they couldn't tell the hex was meant to be a "0". That's understandable, but I would argue not enough to say it's illegal (that's the bias...).

Ryan,
I watched your robot compete on the Centurion-Krawler stream for about 2.5 matches before I realized that the robot I was watching was a CIS robot. In comparison, I could identify 2501, 3313, 2052, and others right away by their bumpers.

Given, this may say more about the quality of the stream than your robot, however, you need to be aware that you will be mis-identified more than once this season with those bumpers. Even if this were legal, I would advise against it. There are many other better locations for your logo.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

A lot of people have responded that they couldn't tell the hex was meant to be a "0". That's understandable, but I would argue not enough to say it's illegal (that's the bias...).

I think this meets the definition of "ambiguous." I honestly could not tell that was a zero..a hexagon isn't a typical zero shape. And zeros typically aren't circles; they're ovals, so the regular shape of the hexagon threw me off. The letters are, to me, something not a number. So if I inspected this robot I would tell you to fix the numbers, and of course the LTS would end up getting involved.

If the rest of the numbers were in a font that more closely matched the hexagon I think you'd have a better argument. But to me the letters would still be a problem.

[rich2202]

Jason's post reminded me about something someone said about the bumper rules. Unlike the robot rules, where if it is not illegal, then you can do it, the bumper rules are the opposit: if it does not say you can do it, then you can't.

So, the question is: where in the rules does it allow you put anything but the numbers on the bumper? All the decoration inside the 0 is not allowed. In addition, the font of the 0 is different from the other numbers, which adds confusion.

[JacobD]

If I was you I would show up with those bumpers. If the RI doesn't let it pass, then just safety pin a piece of fabric over the interior of the 0. Then, it is definitely ambiguous.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JacobD

If I was you I would show up with those bumpers. If the RI doesn't let it pass, then just safety pin a piece of fabric over the interior of the 0. Then, it is definitely ambiguous.

Safety pin? Sorry, then it's definitely illegal. No hard parts past 1" from the Frame Perimeter.


I'd be thinking red paint myself.

OR, here's an option, but I don't know if you'll want to use it: Build a second set of red bumpers. This set is your "show" bumpers.

[cadandcookies]

I'm not an inspector, but I think it was pretty darn obvious that the team was 4607 and not 467. Even more so from a distance-- brains are pretty good at making out patterns.

My opinion means precisely nothing here but they don't seem particularly ambiguous to me. The biggest issue I have is with CIS being printed on them.

Again, my opinion isn't really relevant but it seems a bit pedantic and needlessly picky to say they aren't legal numerals. I suppose that's what you sign up for as an inspector though