Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

A numeral is any symbol that represents a number. It is most definitely a numeral. The only question is whether it's ambiguous or not. The only opinion that matters is Big Al at this point because the LRI at our events has already deferred to him. I'm also a robot inspector so I know the process. It's interesting hear the opinions from everybody.

I've talked to numerous teams that have seen our bumpers and want to do the same with their logos. The ruling here does set a precedent, and is important that we clarify it now.

If you have to look up definitions of words to try to justify the legality, I'd walk away from the design. There are many things that we have to deal with to get a working robot on the field. A lengthy discussion about whether or not bumper numbers are legal really shouldn't be one of the issues. (Even though it looks neat).

[GeeTwo]

Many of those strokes (possibly all) are less than 1/2" wide. Therefore illegal.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Many of those strokes (possibly all) are less than 1/2" wide. Therefore illegal.

I was just about to make the same claim. The purpose of the 1/2" rule is so that at a distance, the number is easily discernible. At a distance, this numeral will be confusing (it was confusing to some CD'ers even at close range). It maybe mistaken for a wide stroked 8, by those with less than ideal eyesight at a distance, for instance.

When someone, such as a reporter, asks you about your team logo (separate from these bumpers) and what it means, do you start with the words: "Well, its the numeral zero..." I suspect you may mention the hex shape is mechanical concept (hex shafts, etc.) and tell them what the letters C.I.S. stand for. Your logo is not a numeral. Your proposed "numeral" is a logo.

[Rosiebotboss]

The logo is cool looking. Very professional, unique, well executed. That being said, the logo is not a number. It is a logo.

My ruling is illegal. The team needs to change it.

[JesseK]

I would say illegal due to the letters 'C' 'I' 'S' not being numerals, but technically those are a mask created by the logo rather than being the material of the logo.

It could be argued that the '0' created by the logo creates confusion at first glance since it isn't the same font as the other numbers. Yet that is quite subjective.

It could be argued that the '0' isn't a '0' at all since no depiction of zero on images.google.com or in any western-style font is depicted by a round or hex oval with 3 lines criss-crossing the center. 4607 would have to convince the LRI that their self-made '0' is in fact a zero recognized by people other than their own team.

Thus, while we can't rule for sure - it seems like there is strong evidence to suggest which way the LRI's would rule.

[bobl]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I've talked to numerous teams that have seen our bumpers and want to do the same with their logos. The ruling here does set a precedent, and is important that we clarify it now.

I want to know where the line is so I can push right up next to it without crossing.

If you truly want to determine if the bumpers are legal under the games rules, submit the question to the Q&A system. Remember, the GDC's answer is the only one that counts.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by bobl

If you truly want to determine if the bumpers are legal under the games rules, submit the question to the Q&A system. Remember, the GDC's answer is the only one that counts.

Or the LRI or Head Referee's opinion at the event.

[evanperryg]

As a rule of thumb, if you have to ask Chief Delphi whether something is legal the day before bag and tag, it's probably not legal.

[Chief Hedgehog]

As the case has been settled (we failed), I just want to thank all of you for a great debate - this is why I love/live on CD; the lively debates.

We (FRC 4607) knew we were pushing the threshold when we placed the 'numbers'. As with all things that FRC 4607 does, we tested the boundaries.

We went ahead with it knowing it would be questionable. However, for those that have stated (in effect) 'if it is not in the rules it is illegal' or 'if you have to refer to a source/dictionary it is wrong' - I think you may be going about FRC differently than my team does.

I do want my students to push the folds. I want them challenging themselves and the norm. In this case, we were pushing on something we saw as an unambiguous terminology in the rules. We backed it up with three different dictionaries. And in the long run, the LRI's that we greatly respect came back and let us know that they would not pass it.

No harm, no foul. We have a great logo that we incorporate on MOST of our team's media (in fact, we could not find a way to include it on the Team's Website and we awaited to hear back from the LRI's that since we did not use it universally, it was not our Numerals).

I am fine with this. We failed in this part of our branding. My kids fail - and I love this about my team. They are willing to take HUGE leaps - and they are willing to fall short. FRC 4607 does not ever play it safe - and the kids learn from their experiences. I encourage this attitude and how they approach their time on FRC 4607. We may never be a PowerHouse team, but my kids go on to do amazing things because we allow them to dream big and do big - regardless of how they may fail.

We are remaking the bumpers - we will use these as our 'Show Bumpers' in the off-season.

Good luck to all - remember that the build season is more important than the Competition Season!

[GeeTwo]

Actually, when I saw the title of the post, my knee-jerk reaction was "probably not". With bumpers, if you have to ask, it probably ain't legal.

(Sniped by EvanPerryG)

Although, as a possible compromise -- if your zero had been a simple hexagon with 1/2" strokes (most especially if the points were vertical), I would have ruled it legal.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

Actually, when I saw the title of the post, my knee-jerk reaction was "probably not". With bumpers, if you have to ask, it probably ain't legal.

(Sniped by EvanPerryG)

Although, as a possible compromise -- if your zero were a simple hexagon with 1/2" strokes (especially if the points were vertical), I would have ruled it legal.

The reason that our 'ZERO' was over-sized was to make certain that the outside of the Hexagon was in fact 1/2"!

We did have fun with it - and we are not unhappy at all. In fact, the bumpers took some major damage at our Week Zero event, so we had to remake them anyway!

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

We went ahead with it knowing it would be questionable. However, for those that have stated (in effect) 'if it is not in the rules it is illegal' or 'if you have to refer to a source/dictionary it is wrong' - I think you may be going about FRC differently than my team does.

There are places where FIRST wants students to be imaginative, and places where FIRST want conformity. Bumpers and pneumatics are places where if it doesn't say you can do it, then don't.

You are openening a can of worms by putting a logo on your bumper, and for that reason alone, FIRST may DQ the idea.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

There is nothing like referencing the actual rule...
R28 Team numbers must be displayed and positioned on the BUMPERS such that an observer walking around the perimeter of the ROBOT can unambiguously tell the Team’s number from any point of view and meet the following additional criteria:
A. consist of numerals at least 4 in. high, at least ½ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white
B. must not wrap around sharp corners (less than 160 degrees) of the FRAME PERIMETER
Blue Box
There is no prohibition against splitting Team numbers onto different
sections of BUMPER. The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly
visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and
other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

Sorry, I have to side with the "I can't really tell what the team number is" crowd. While really cool, the logo confuses the "0". More importantly, other teams cannot do the same thing due to logo designs, shapes, etc. See you next week in Duluth...

[Ginger Power]

Thanks for ruling on this before Duluth. We'll have enough plenty of time to make them legal. Thanks everybody for offering up your opinions. Nothing like being ripped apart on Chief Delphi