Legality of stepstool

[gpetilli]

Originally Posted by mrwright

So it appears that step stools are officially illegal. We figured they would be but it was worth a try!

Q872

Q783

I read the official answer differently. It does not say it is illegal, it says that it will be handled on a case by case basis by the head ref.

The GDC was not willing to place a line in the sand, but agreed there is a dotted line someplace. Clearly the 4'11" girl is "disadvantaged", but is this a "disability"? Particularly with the tall portcullis, I feel that Stronghold puts many HS girls at a unfair and unnecessary disadvantage, essentially exclude them from consideration as a DRIVER or SPY. Basically the FIRST equivalent of a "glass ceiling".

Personally, I would have preferred they ruled similar to the robot extension of 15"; say allowing a height extension such that the combined DRIVER plus aid did not exceed 6' (pick your favorite statistic for average height of a HS student).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gpetilli

I read the official answer differently. It does not say it is illegal, it says that it will be handled on a case by case basis by the head ref.

Actually... it does say it's illegal. It's a violation of T26-1. I don't see how much more clearly they can say "it's illegal".

The 4'11" driver noted falls into one of the exceptions allowed by T26-1 (specifically exception E), and is thus likely to be legal (though who exactly makes the ruling is still up in the air).

[Pauline Tasci]

To be honest this is long overdue. When I was driving 2011-2013 I was never allowed to use a stool which hindered performance greatly, I hope more refs will allow the stool this year especially with the huge field elements.

[gpetilli]

GDC Answer: DRIVE TEAMS may bring to the ARENA any "special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability", per T26-1-E. If you bring special equipment and it's not obvious that you require it because of a disability, you can expect to be asked about it. However, we won't be setting guidelines on what it means to require special equipment due to a disability. That judgement will be made on a case-by-case basis at events.

The answer says you will be "asked about it". It does does not use the word illegal (or legal).

From ADS Fact Sheet:
Who is an "individual with a disability?"

Under the ADA, an individual with a disability is a person who has:

a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities;
a record of such an impairment; or
is regarded as having such an impairment.

I would argue that a "vertically challenged" individual is regarded as having a physical impairment that limits them from participating in the life activity of FRC DRIVER.

BTW: 50 percentile height of 16-17 year old boy is 67-70 inches, girl is 64 inches. A combined height of 5'9" would seem appropriate to me - about half the boys are still taller. A "level" playing field for boys and girls.

Full disclosure - I am the person who wrote the original "vertically challenged" question.

[cjl2625]

Hm, I'm assuming clothing and shoes don't count as "equipment brought into the castle," as I haven't seen any drive teams that are barefoot and/or naked.

So what if you happened to wear exceptionally tall shoes? Bringing some height-increasing boots or some shoes fastened to a tall slab of wood.

Maybe I'm not crazy enough to try it, but for the sake of argument, I wonder what the legality is on that.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by gpetilli

GDC Answer: DRIVE TEAMS may bring to the ARENA any "special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability", per T26-1-E.

Do you need a step stool to drive or does it just help?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by cjl2625

Hm, I'm assuming clothing and shoes don't count as "equipment brought into the castle," as I haven't seen any drive teams that are barefoot and/or naked.

So what if you happened to wear exceptionally tall shoes? Bringing some height-increasing boots or some shoes fastened to a tall slab of wood.

Maybe I'm not crazy enough to try it, but for the sake of argument, I wonder what the legality is on that.

Q875 may be of interest.

[notmattlythgoe]

Nobody seems to have brought up the fact that having a step stool in the middle of the alliance stations would be a major safety hazard for both HP's and other coaches running around.

[dradel]

By federal law the refs wouldn't be able to ask about a persons disability per the ada.
And we can't say girls are allowed to bring stools cause that would be straight up sexist.
I like the combined height of driver plus stool not to exceed 6'. But what if your driver stands 6'2" without a stool are they then illegal??

[gpetilli]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Do you need a step stool to drive or does it just help?

My wife uses a walker. Does she need a handicap tag for the car or does it just help? Ramp or stairs? FRC does allow for ramps for wheel chair using drivers. If a wheel chair user can stand for a 2:30 match does he/she "need" a ramp? ADA says yes and FRC provides one. Perhaps they can provide a 9" step stool for any students less than 5'.

The question is not to define "need" vs. "help". The question for FRC how do they define "disability". The GDC has often said that where there is no specific definition in the rules, we defer to the dictionary definition. The ADA redefines "disability" as an "impairment". In my opinion, the 4'11" tall girl playing Stronghold is visually impaired as compared to the average 70" tall male student. I suspect that most head refs would agree - but I think the GDC should draw a definitive line in the sand that levels the playing field, not open for abuse and is consistent from arena to arena.

[dradel]

I concur!! Either make do with the stool drivers stand no more than 72". Shouldn't matter if a person is 4'11", or 5'5".

[gpetilli]

Originally Posted by dradel

By federal law the refs wouldn't be able to ask about a persons disability per the ada.
And we can't say girls are allowed to bring stools cause that would be straight up sexist.
I like the combined height of driver plus stool not to exceed 6'. But what if your driver stands 6'2" without a stool are they then illegal??

Clearly they can not ask about the medical cause of the disability, but the fact that they are impaired is evident. Amusement parks have bars that you must be taller than to ride. A maximum height line/bar to use a provided step stool seems legit to me.

[gegozi]

It should be allowed because they allow tall driver stations.
Otherwise, you may be allowed to stand on a stack of papers or whiteboards...
Just a possibility, i'm not sure whether the refs will call it illegal...

[GaryVoshol]

Oh great, make me the bad guy if I decide that it's not a disability. "But the ref last week allowed it!"

I sure hope we get some direction in ref training. Then you can ask me about it in the drivers' meeting and I'll have an official answer for you.

Else, making it up as we go, we will be inconsistent at different events.

[gpetilli]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Oh great, make me the bad guy if I decide that it's not a disability. "But the ref last week allowed it!"

I sure hope we get some direction in ref training. Then you can ask me about it in the drivers' meeting and I'll have an official answer for you.

Else, making it up as we go, we will be inconsistent at different events.

I did send an email to frcteams@frcinspire.com to ask for a more definitive team update. I don't think it is fair to leave it to the local refs.