Team Update 13 (2016)

[Ian Curtis]

To what level of detail were referees previously instructed to record the details of fouls / tech fouls?

I think all teams have a reasonable expectation that referees should be able to say at a high level, "This robot got this penalty for doing this thing." At the same time, no team should expect a 20 page report. If the intent of this blue box was to make it clear that no 20 page reports will be issued, I think that's fine. But as written, having no expectation to be told which robot incurred the penalty is a big step backwards in consistency. In my experience, a reasonable percentage of teams at events do not know the rules very well & may have no clue that what they are doing is causing the fouls... the only way to stop the fouls is to inform them!

[Akash Rastogi]

"Process Improvement"

By definition, that's supposed to, ya know, improve something.

I definitely think FIRST dropped the ball on this one and will regret making this decision. I predict the majority of teams taking issue with this.

[carpedav000]

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

[Steve Kaneb]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

This is probably just giving an example for the "extended and egregious" flag in the Violation field, which awards a red card.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

What Steve said. 5 seconds is still a pin, AND that includes the time it takes you to move at least 6' away (you are still considered pinning the robot if you are within 6' of it).

What it does clarify: If you pin for 15 seconds, you are getting a red card and disqualified from the match (or DQ the entire alliance during Eliminations). Team's won't be able to complain about the Red Card (was it really egregious) if they pinned a robot for 15 seconds.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

When I used to be a ref, I was always instructed to specifically go FIND AND TALK TO THE TEAM that I called a foul on, no matter how insignificant or obvious the penalty was. We want teams to play at their absolute best and if a team has no idea they are doing something wrong, I think they may have some room to improve.

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I won't be mad about this if it means defense crossings are called reliably and consistently. I still have flashbacks to '14 and assists just being flat out missed/made up.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

This is my bigger concern. Fouls will be very confusing to the audience - especially if they decide a match or even an event and it isn't announced. I can't see that happening where someone calls a foul and says 'oh I forgot what I called' but this allows it.

Also just a general comment; Refs are volunteers - lay off them. No one is out to get you.

[Brandon Holley]

I share concerns with the group of you as far as not being able to inform teams what actually happened when a foul was called. There will definitely be times that this decides a match and will be very annoying for the parties involved.

All that being said, I do think the emphasis on calling things right and keeping focus on the game at all times will create a positive benefit. Hopefully there are no missed defensive crossings, boulders are being tracked properly, etc.

I'm very cautiously optimistic this will create some improvement as far as calling the game, as its played, properly. Unfortunately, being called with a foul and not being able to figure out what you did wrong will be very frustrating to teams.


-Brando

[Weinberger]

The team/robot's coach will need to be more aware this season, behind the glass: such that it is noticed when a referee is waving their red/blue flag at the robot incurring the foul/tech foul and pointing at your robot.
That means the foul is on you. (Coach will have to recognize this at the moment it happens however). Points awarded to the other side. I'm sure, that if the student team member approaches the referee question box (if the penalty/rule # is not immediately recognized) at the end of the match at least some helpful information can/will be passed to the team incurring the penalty.

[MasterMentor]

Hah, I was wondering how they'd deal with that. This game has the potential of being penalty crazy - push three balls into the other team's secret passage while your robot itself goes in there, and that's like three tech fouls and a couple regular fouls too. I can see it getting nasty with rookie teams doing dumb stuff and the referee spending all their time writing down penalties and not seeing my defense crossing. I really hope there aren't many penalties, but I see this game being a potential powder keg with the penalties. I'd assume I can still ask "what were all the penalties on blue alliance?" and being given a general, "lots of techs for balls in the passage, several for tossing balls over defenses, and a few for getting touched while in the opponent's passage." Maybe we won't be told exactly who committed the foul and exactly why, but I figure the alliance will know.

Crossing my fingers that FIRST knows what they're doing.

-G

[GeeTwo]

It's being presented as a change, and a reduction in the documentation. This means that in addition to the 2014 state of affairs when a remarkable number of teams (esp HPs) never seemed to know or care that they were fouling several times a match, we will also have teams that know and care that it happened, but don't know what they have to fix.

The situation will be more consistent between the teams that care and the teams that don't.

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

Actually, it's the other way around. If you were up against a rapidly scoring machine, it might have been worthwhile to hold a pin all match drawing fouls to keep the opposing robot from scoring (not likely, but possible). This puts a brake on such activity.

[Cory]

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I've said this before but lack of communication between refs and teams is #1 reason I won't ever ref for FRC, I love reffing robotics events but FRC makes it so hard for refs to actually teach teams how to game is supposed to be played to to communicate with them at all.

[waialua359]

I pray that there isnt an event that a foul changes the outcome of an alliance winning/losing that either/both sides dont know how they were assessed.
While we have never been negatively affected, especially back in 2014, I can see myself being very upset it it did happen not knowing why.
Fingers crossed.....for everyone.