Team Update 13 (2016)

[GeeTwo]

It's being presented as a change, and a reduction in the documentation. This means that in addition to the 2014 state of affairs when a remarkable number of teams (esp HPs) never seemed to know or care that they were fouling several times a match, we will also have teams that know and care that it happened, but don't know what they have to fix.

The situation will be more consistent between the teams that care and the teams that don't.

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

Actually, it's the other way around. If you were up against a rapidly scoring machine, it might have been worthwhile to hold a pin all match drawing fouls to keep the opposing robot from scoring (not likely, but possible). This puts a brake on such activity.

[Cory]

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I've said this before but lack of communication between refs and teams is #1 reason I won't ever ref for FRC, I love reffing robotics events but FRC makes it so hard for refs to actually teach teams how to game is supposed to be played to to communicate with them at all.

[waialua359]

I pray that there isnt an event that a foul changes the outcome of an alliance winning/losing that either/both sides dont know how they were assessed.
While we have never been negatively affected, especially back in 2014, I can see myself being very upset it it did happen not knowing why.
Fingers crossed.....for everyone.

[Ty Tremblay]

I believe this is indeed a step in the correct direction. I haven’t taken notes during a match since 2011. If I’m not doing it, and another referee is, we aren’t watching the game in the same way. Referees should make calls immediately as they see them, and then move on to the rest of the match. Dwelling on each means missing other things.

Let’s look at this game from the perspective of a referee. The refs are in charge of scoring again this year, and there are only so many eyes to go around (all fouls and outer works scoring are manual this year). The refs will be taxed enough trying to keep score and keep play in line. Personally, I’d rather have a ref lose track of which foul they called than miss a defense crossing due to writing it down.

The training and testing the referees take is thorough, and the head referees are better informed than ever. FIRST had all the head referees up at the NH scrimmage to discuss how their crews would call fouls this year. That’s brand new!

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

...please talk to the head referee if you do not understand a call. Qualification matches especially are the time to bring up concerns or confusion. I have heard too often the question within a team "should I ask the head referee about this?" The answer is yes. Once the head referee has heard your question, they'll let you know whether that's how the situation is or if there is a different resolution.

The refs are volunteers. They’re not vindictive monsters out to rig matches. If you ask about fouls, they’ll be able to help you and explain what happened. It’s their job. This change is to allow refs to do exactly that, their job.

Take this opportunity to know the rules, study up, and present an educated argument if you ever need to enter the question box.

[Madison]

lol.

I wish this were more surprising than it is. Refs should demand better from the rules and from the GDC.

[IronicDeadBird]

This actually doesn't really do much improvement on the foul system.
It is one thing to have a foul system but on a low visibility map to have a foul system and no feedback lets run a scenario.
Team 1 on an alliance gets 3 tech fouls.
2 tech fouls come from launching a boulder while still in contact with the secret passage, 1 comes from contacting an opponent in the secret passage.
The team only sees the tech foul where they contact the opponent in the secret passage.
Unless some outsider to the team notifies them that they were shooting illegally, the assumption I would make from that teams perspective is that we just made contact with the opposing robot. I'm sure others would handle it differently but for those of you who would handle it in a similar would be stuck doing things wrong and not being able to learn from it.
That isn't healthy for the game, its like playing a board game with someone who lost the instructions to the game and makes up rules.

[Ty Tremblay]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

This actually doesn't really do much improvement on the foul system.
It is one thing to have a foul system but on a low visibility map to have a foul system and no feedback lets run a scenario.
Team 1 on an alliance gets 3 tech fouls.
2 tech fouls come from launching a boulder while still in contact with the secret passage, 1 comes from contacting an opponent in the secret passage.
The team only sees the tech foul where they contact the opponent in the secret passage.
Unless some outsider to the team notifies them that they were shooting illegally, the assumption I would make from that teams perspective is that we just made contact with the opposing robot. I'm sure others would handle it differently but for those of you who would handle it in a similar would be stuck doing things wrong and not being able to learn from it.
That isn't healthy for the game, its like playing a board game with someone who lost the instructions to the game and makes up rules.

This is an incorrect interpretation. Plain and simple.

Nowhere in that blue box does it say the refs will decrease feedback. Teams can get feedback from the refs via the head ref and the question box. It's been that way for at least 6 years now. The head ref will be willing to answer any pertinent and prompt questions about a match, they're just not going to take their eyes off the field to write each and every foul down.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

This is an incorrect interpretation. Plain and simple.

Nowhere in that blue box does it say the refs will decrease feedback. Teams can get feedback from the refs via the head ref and the question box. It's been that way for at least 6 years now. The head ref will be willing to answer any pertinent and prompt questions about a match, they're just not going to take their eyes off the field to write each and every foul down.

The only questions I have for refs is based on the details of a foul. "What is the foul, when did it occur".
Those two pieces of information are literally all I need to know. I can read the rule book and see what they gave me a foul for, and I can see when it happens and see if I someone on the team had a better angle on what happened. But team update 13 says.
It specifically says " As a result we don't expect refs to recall details of what fouls are made when and for whom."
They have just cut the only feedback I need from them.
Authority is like a fly swatter, if you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and you show me the fly swatter with bits of deadly insect on it I'm cool.
If you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and don't have a reason I'm pissed.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The only questions I have for refs is based on the details of a foul. "What is the foul, when did it occur".
Those two pieces of information are literally all I need to know. I can read the rule book and see what they gave me a foul for, and I can see when it happens and see if I someone on the team had a better angle on what happened. But team update 13 says.
It specifically says " As a result we don't expect refs to recall details of what fouls are made when and for whom."
They have just cut the only feedback I need from them.
Authority is like a fly swatter, if you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and you show me the fly swatter with bits of deadly insect on it I'm cool.
If you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and don't have a reason I'm pissed.

If you ask the head ref right after a match for the details of a foul, I'm sure they will work with the refs and do their best to provide that information.

The change this year is that instead of taking time to make notes on each infraction, the refs can keep their eyes on the field and do their job better. That doesn't mean that they are going to instantly forget everything that happened in the match.

[IronicDeadBird]

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team? Real happy for the audience this year, but the audiences pleasure is starting to come at the price of the students who this is for.
Minimum you get a UI with 4 on a device synced with the match timer. 2 red buttons two blue buttons, 2 foul buttons, 2 tech foul buttons. Push a button give a team the appropriate penalty and give it a time stamp.
I'm no programmer but I feel like thats a fairly simple app to create considering all the scouting Apps I see out there.

[Ty Tremblay]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team? Real happy for the audience this year, but the audiences pleasure is starting to come at the price of the students who this is for.
Minimum you get a UI with 4 on a device synced with the match timer. 2 red buttons two blue buttons, 2 foul buttons, 2 tech foul buttons. Push a button give a team the appropriate penalty and give it a time stamp.
I'm no programmer but I feel like thats a fairly simple app to create considering all the scouting Apps I see out there.

It's not the app that's the problem, it's the human running the app. There are a lot of fouls you can get this year, and they're all named with a letter-number code. It is too taxing for someone to remember all the foul codes, find them on the screen, and assign them to the right robot... while also entering the scoring information for defense crossing and actually catching fouls as well.

[ayo_christina]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team?

Would a time stamp in 150 seconds of game play be that beneficial? Chances are you want this time stamp to compare to video which will under no circumstances be reviewed by officials. If the review is for internal benefits (which I totally understand) all you really need to know is the infraction and you can fish it out on your own. From personal experience I've delayed entering fouls until certain another ref hasn't entered or there is a lull in game play so I don't miss anything. The stamp could be way off. Sometimes I'll remember fouls in terms of "red robot with sick powder coating just pinned too long". Taking the time to track the numbers on the bumper is something I would do after the match. Entering this information real time would take too long. Even with a revised ref interface (which it is this year) it's still a lot of information to enter.

Think texting and driving. You actually lose a lot of time when you're entering fouls and scoring.

[ayo_christina]

I believe people are interpreting this incorrectly. "Any reasonable questions is fair game in the Questions Box, and Head REFEREES will do good faith efforts to provide helpful feedback." Isn't this what has been done for the last few years? Don't expect the a ref to know that at the 67th second a particular team violated G-26 but I've always seen referees advise teams on violations. Actually, I've always been instructed to reach out to teams on preventable infractions, particularly in practice/early qualifiers.

Most of the violations I have called have been due to drivers not knowing the rules. The best thing any team could possibly do is have their drivings know the game manual inside and out. Make sure you alliance members know the rules and that your strategy is compliant. This can't be stressed enough.

Best way to avoid penalties? Don't break the rules.

Have a little faith. The training is much more extensive than it has been in the past. I've also noticed the volunteer selection for referees has been better too; qualified individuals who are familiar with FIRST and understand the events. As volunteers we don't want to send a team home over something silly. That being said students and mentors should STAY CALM, know what they are contesting, reach the question box in a timely manner, continue to remain calm, and professionally present your questions.

Edit: Today's blog update supplements well.
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...-Communication

[IronicDeadBird]

I mean I guess I'd be fine with this if each team has a spy instead of one team per alliance.