Team Update 13 (2016)

[Hallry]

Last Friday Update of the 2016 season!

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...Updates/13.pdf

Interesting addition of a Blue Box under Section 5.5.3 REFEREE Interaction, T19:

As a process improvement, in this year’s REFEREE training we
instructed them to not record details about FOULS and TECHNICAL
FOULS; as a result, we don’t expect REFEREES to recall details
about what FOULS or TECHNICAL FOULS were made, when they
occurred, and against whom.

The goal is to increase consistency across events while enabling and
empowering REFEREES to focus on the play on the FIELD (instead
of worrying about keeping detailed records during the MATCH). Any
reasonable question is fair game in the Question Box, and Head
REFEREES will do good faith efforts to provide helpful feedback (e.g.
how/why certain FOULS are being called, why a particular ROBOT
may be susceptible to certain FOULS based on its design or game
play, how specific rules are being called or interpreted), but please
know that they will likely not be able to supply specific details.

[Michael Hill]

Well that's going to be annoying.

[Chris is me]

"Process Improvement"? Seriously?

How could this possibly increase consistency? How is anyone supposed to know if things are more consistent if they don't even know what's being called? How are teams supposed to avoid fouls if they don't know how they got them?

I frankly don't understand how this could possibly be a good idea. Lots of heartbroken teams, lots of confusion, fewer prevented fouls, all for what?

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Seems like a pretty bad change from my view. Like because of some potentially bad calls every couple times a year, the bar for all events will be lowered just so that they are all consistent?

[RoboTigers1796]

This is ridiculous. This must be a joke like the 10th defense, right? right?

How can they increase consistency across events if you completely abandon record keeping to see what is being called and how?

And so does this mean rather then a traditional match where they announce scores and say "Blue alliance won 25-10 and there was a foul on team XXX for violation XXX for extending outside the field" after a match they will just be saying there were 3 fouls on the red alliance, they lost because of it, but who knows what they were for because the referees don't recall

How in this in any way, shape, or form better for accountability, teams correcting the error/knowing what they did wrong, or for the viewers watching the matches?

[Ian Curtis]

To what level of detail were referees previously instructed to record the details of fouls / tech fouls?

I think all teams have a reasonable expectation that referees should be able to say at a high level, "This robot got this penalty for doing this thing." At the same time, no team should expect a 20 page report. If the intent of this blue box was to make it clear that no 20 page reports will be issued, I think that's fine. But as written, having no expectation to be told which robot incurred the penalty is a big step backwards in consistency. In my experience, a reasonable percentage of teams at events do not know the rules very well & may have no clue that what they are doing is causing the fouls... the only way to stop the fouls is to inform them!

[Akash Rastogi]

"Process Improvement"

By definition, that's supposed to, ya know, improve something.

I definitely think FIRST dropped the ball on this one and will regret making this decision. I predict the majority of teams taking issue with this.

[MasterMentor]

Hah, I was wondering how they'd deal with that. This game has the potential of being penalty crazy - push three balls into the other team's secret passage while your robot itself goes in there, and that's like three tech fouls and a couple regular fouls too. I can see it getting nasty with rookie teams doing dumb stuff and the referee spending all their time writing down penalties and not seeing my defense crossing. I really hope there aren't many penalties, but I see this game being a potential powder keg with the penalties. I'd assume I can still ask "what were all the penalties on blue alliance?" and being given a general, "lots of techs for balls in the passage, several for tossing balls over defenses, and a few for getting touched while in the opponent's passage." Maybe we won't be told exactly who committed the foul and exactly why, but I figure the alliance will know.

Crossing my fingers that FIRST knows what they're doing.

-G

[carpedav000]

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

[Steve Kaneb]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

This is probably just giving an example for the "extended and egregious" flag in the Violation field, which awards a red card.

[GeeTwo]

It's being presented as a change, and a reduction in the documentation. This means that in addition to the 2014 state of affairs when a remarkable number of teams (esp HPs) never seemed to know or care that they were fouling several times a match, we will also have teams that know and care that it happened, but don't know what they have to fix.

The situation will be more consistent between the teams that care and the teams that don't.

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

Actually, it's the other way around. If you were up against a rapidly scoring machine, it might have been worthwhile to hold a pin all match drawing fouls to keep the opposing robot from scoring (not likely, but possible). This puts a brake on such activity.

[Cory]

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

[AllenGregoryIV]

I've said this before but lack of communication between refs and teams is #1 reason I won't ever ref for FRC, I love reffing robotics events but FRC makes it so hard for refs to actually teach teams how to game is supposed to be played to to communicate with them at all.

[waialua359]

I pray that there isnt an event that a foul changes the outcome of an alliance winning/losing that either/both sides dont know how they were assessed.
While we have never been negatively affected, especially back in 2014, I can see myself being very upset it it did happen not knowing why.
Fingers crossed.....for everyone.

[Ty Tremblay]

I believe this is indeed a step in the correct direction. I haven’t taken notes during a match since 2011. If I’m not doing it, and another referee is, we aren’t watching the game in the same way. Referees should make calls immediately as they see them, and then move on to the rest of the match. Dwelling on each means missing other things.

Let’s look at this game from the perspective of a referee. The refs are in charge of scoring again this year, and there are only so many eyes to go around (all fouls and outer works scoring are manual this year). The refs will be taxed enough trying to keep score and keep play in line. Personally, I’d rather have a ref lose track of which foul they called than miss a defense crossing due to writing it down.

The training and testing the referees take is thorough, and the head referees are better informed than ever. FIRST had all the head referees up at the NH scrimmage to discuss how their crews would call fouls this year. That’s brand new!

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

...please talk to the head referee if you do not understand a call. Qualification matches especially are the time to bring up concerns or confusion. I have heard too often the question within a team "should I ask the head referee about this?" The answer is yes. Once the head referee has heard your question, they'll let you know whether that's how the situation is or if there is a different resolution.

The refs are volunteers. They’re not vindictive monsters out to rig matches. If you ask about fouls, they’ll be able to help you and explain what happened. It’s their job. This change is to allow refs to do exactly that, their job.

Take this opportunity to know the rules, study up, and present an educated argument if you ever need to enter the question box.