Team Update 13 (2016)

[Caleb Sykes]

This is a great change, it's just like football now. In football, when one team gets a penalty, the referee just moves the ball without explaining why and everyone is just fine with it.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

This is a great change, it's just like football now. In football, when one team gets a penalty, the referee just moves the ball without explaining why and everyone is just fine with it.

*throws challenge flag*

[PayneTrain]

We've run into head referees that apparently don't even read team updates so maybe we can cross our fingers and hope to come out on top here.

I kinda get it, I just see a lot of decisions made in FIRST that I disagree with summed up as disregarding a middle-ground solution that everyone can be happy with in favor of the easy route :/

[seth.brugler]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

This is a great change, it's just like football now. In football, when one team gets a penalty, the referee just moves the ball without explaining why and everyone is just fine with it.

But referees in football just throw a flag and watch the rest of the play, which will only be around 5 seconds. They're calling fouls in 5 second intervals, not 2 minutes. If football refs had to document the foul during the play then they could miss out on important events. I don't agree with the update, but the reasoning makes sense.

[IronicDeadBird]

Man if this is the 11th defense, I can't wait too see what happens next.

RIP teams who don't record matches.

[rich2202]

In the past when I called a foul, I can tell you what happened, but I would be hard pressed to remember which robot/human player committed the foul.

Hopefully the Alliances will still know, in general, which fouls were called. You may not know which team committed the foul.

I presume Refs will still point and wave a flag when a foul is committed. That will give you some indication of who/when of a foul. Have your Drive Team's Coach watch the Ref in the zone where your robot is.

Some of the more nuanced fouls are going to give teams fits. I can see teams trying to pick up a ball in the Neutral Zone, and accidentally pushing the boulder into the opposing team's secret passage. If you don't watch the Ref, you may never know you were called on the foul..

Worse yet, the team drives into the SP following the boulder. Another Foul. Then to add insult to injury, the robot gets the ball, and then goes back into the neutral zone. Another foul.

[R2D2DOC]

As in football, "Let's go to the instant replay" !! There are enough video captures going on. Easy enough to put a couple of GoPro cameras on the field for FTAs to manage, so if there is a REALLY BIG issue, we can go to the recording. Delete the recordings within "n" matches after. And as in red challenge flags, any team just gets 1 or 2 for an entire competition. For playoffs, any alliance gets 1. If you are in your third district, you get zero.

Just sayin'

[JesseK]

Oh End-Of-The-World CDenizens... you never fail to entertain...

It seems like this is a +1 for the refs' workload, and since the refs will have more focus on the field events it will be +2 for the teams. There are a lot of niche or fast ways to deal with defenses that 5 refs can easily miss if they're worried about scribbling down context and rule numbers.

I've never had a question go un-answered immediately following a match. If it's 2-3 matches later, all bets are off - even if the refs wrote something down.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by R2D2DOC

Easy enough to put a couple of GoPro cameras on the field for FTAs to manage

Recording the video is easy. Reviewing the video is a whole different story. Retrieve the videos, find the spot on the video, review it full speed, review it in slow motion, zoom to specific part of the screen, side by side simultaneous views, .... Multiply that by the number of cameras...

If you are the NFL, you can invest millions in the technology, have a team of people slicing and dicing the videos for the ref's, and it still takes 2 minutes to review a call.

Ain't gonna happen.

[Nemo]

Keeping the referees' eyes on the field more is a good thing, and it's still reasonable to expect them to remember most fouls from the immediately previous match.

If I'm choosing my battles, I'd rather have the call made right in the first place more often instead of having detailed feedback and written records explaining exactly why the wrong call was made. So this very small change is a very small improvement.

If we wanted to improve the consistency and quality of refereeing in a meaningful way, we'd have to do something other than a wording change in the training. That might include paid referees or increasing the number of field volunteers so we can separate the scorekeeper and referee roles.

[Matt C]

I have a feeling this year will be similar to 2011 as far as sheer number of fouls. Remember that the refs are also responsible for scoring the crossed defenses.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

What Steve said. 5 seconds is still a pin, AND that includes the time it takes you to move at least 6' away (you are still considered pinning the robot if you are within 6' of it).

What it does clarify: If you pin for 15 seconds, you are getting a red card and disqualified from the match (or DQ the entire alliance during Eliminations). Team's won't be able to complain about the Red Card (was it really egregious) if they pinned a robot for 15 seconds.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

When I used to be a ref, I was always instructed to specifically go FIND AND TALK TO THE TEAM that I called a foul on, no matter how insignificant or obvious the penalty was. We want teams to play at their absolute best and if a team has no idea they are doing something wrong, I think they may have some room to improve.

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I won't be mad about this if it means defense crossings are called reliably and consistently. I still have flashbacks to '14 and assists just being flat out missed/made up.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

This is my bigger concern. Fouls will be very confusing to the audience - especially if they decide a match or even an event and it isn't announced. I can't see that happening where someone calls a foul and says 'oh I forgot what I called' but this allows it.

Also just a general comment; Refs are volunteers - lay off them. No one is out to get you.