Team Update 13 (2016)

[Brandon Holley]

I share concerns with the group of you as far as not being able to inform teams what actually happened when a foul was called. There will definitely be times that this decides a match and will be very annoying for the parties involved.

All that being said, I do think the emphasis on calling things right and keeping focus on the game at all times will create a positive benefit. Hopefully there are no missed defensive crossings, boulders are being tracked properly, etc.

I'm very cautiously optimistic this will create some improvement as far as calling the game, as its played, properly. Unfortunately, being called with a foul and not being able to figure out what you did wrong will be very frustrating to teams.


-Brando

[Weinberger]

The team/robot's coach will need to be more aware this season, behind the glass: such that it is noticed when a referee is waving their red/blue flag at the robot incurring the foul/tech foul and pointing at your robot.
That means the foul is on you. (Coach will have to recognize this at the moment it happens however). Points awarded to the other side. I'm sure, that if the student team member approaches the referee question box (if the penalty/rule # is not immediately recognized) at the end of the match at least some helpful information can/will be passed to the team incurring the penalty.

[Madison]

lol.

I wish this were more surprising than it is. Refs should demand better from the rules and from the GDC.

[IronicDeadBird]

This actually doesn't really do much improvement on the foul system.
It is one thing to have a foul system but on a low visibility map to have a foul system and no feedback lets run a scenario.
Team 1 on an alliance gets 3 tech fouls.
2 tech fouls come from launching a boulder while still in contact with the secret passage, 1 comes from contacting an opponent in the secret passage.
The team only sees the tech foul where they contact the opponent in the secret passage.
Unless some outsider to the team notifies them that they were shooting illegally, the assumption I would make from that teams perspective is that we just made contact with the opposing robot. I'm sure others would handle it differently but for those of you who would handle it in a similar would be stuck doing things wrong and not being able to learn from it.
That isn't healthy for the game, its like playing a board game with someone who lost the instructions to the game and makes up rules.

[ayo_christina]

I believe people are interpreting this incorrectly. "Any reasonable questions is fair game in the Questions Box, and Head REFEREES will do good faith efforts to provide helpful feedback." Isn't this what has been done for the last few years? Don't expect the a ref to know that at the 67th second a particular team violated G-26 but I've always seen referees advise teams on violations. Actually, I've always been instructed to reach out to teams on preventable infractions, particularly in practice/early qualifiers.

Most of the violations I have called have been due to drivers not knowing the rules. The best thing any team could possibly do is have their drivings know the game manual inside and out. Make sure you alliance members know the rules and that your strategy is compliant. This can't be stressed enough.

Best way to avoid penalties? Don't break the rules.

Have a little faith. The training is much more extensive than it has been in the past. I've also noticed the volunteer selection for referees has been better too; qualified individuals who are familiar with FIRST and understand the events. As volunteers we don't want to send a team home over something silly. That being said students and mentors should STAY CALM, know what they are contesting, reach the question box in a timely manner, continue to remain calm, and professionally present your questions.

Edit: Today's blog update supplements well.
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...-Communication

[IronicDeadBird]

I mean I guess I'd be fine with this if each team has a spy instead of one team per alliance.

[Ty Tremblay]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

This actually doesn't really do much improvement on the foul system.
It is one thing to have a foul system but on a low visibility map to have a foul system and no feedback lets run a scenario.
Team 1 on an alliance gets 3 tech fouls.
2 tech fouls come from launching a boulder while still in contact with the secret passage, 1 comes from contacting an opponent in the secret passage.
The team only sees the tech foul where they contact the opponent in the secret passage.
Unless some outsider to the team notifies them that they were shooting illegally, the assumption I would make from that teams perspective is that we just made contact with the opposing robot. I'm sure others would handle it differently but for those of you who would handle it in a similar would be stuck doing things wrong and not being able to learn from it.
That isn't healthy for the game, its like playing a board game with someone who lost the instructions to the game and makes up rules.

This is an incorrect interpretation. Plain and simple.

Nowhere in that blue box does it say the refs will decrease feedback. Teams can get feedback from the refs via the head ref and the question box. It's been that way for at least 6 years now. The head ref will be willing to answer any pertinent and prompt questions about a match, they're just not going to take their eyes off the field to write each and every foul down.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

This is an incorrect interpretation. Plain and simple.

Nowhere in that blue box does it say the refs will decrease feedback. Teams can get feedback from the refs via the head ref and the question box. It's been that way for at least 6 years now. The head ref will be willing to answer any pertinent and prompt questions about a match, they're just not going to take their eyes off the field to write each and every foul down.

The only questions I have for refs is based on the details of a foul. "What is the foul, when did it occur".
Those two pieces of information are literally all I need to know. I can read the rule book and see what they gave me a foul for, and I can see when it happens and see if I someone on the team had a better angle on what happened. But team update 13 says.
It specifically says " As a result we don't expect refs to recall details of what fouls are made when and for whom."
They have just cut the only feedback I need from them.
Authority is like a fly swatter, if you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and you show me the fly swatter with bits of deadly insect on it I'm cool.
If you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and don't have a reason I'm pissed.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The only questions I have for refs is based on the details of a foul. "What is the foul, when did it occur".
Those two pieces of information are literally all I need to know. I can read the rule book and see what they gave me a foul for, and I can see when it happens and see if I someone on the team had a better angle on what happened. But team update 13 says.
It specifically says " As a result we don't expect refs to recall details of what fouls are made when and for whom."
They have just cut the only feedback I need from them.
Authority is like a fly swatter, if you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and you show me the fly swatter with bits of deadly insect on it I'm cool.
If you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and don't have a reason I'm pissed.

If you ask the head ref right after a match for the details of a foul, I'm sure they will work with the refs and do their best to provide that information.

The change this year is that instead of taking time to make notes on each infraction, the refs can keep their eyes on the field and do their job better. That doesn't mean that they are going to instantly forget everything that happened in the match.

[IronicDeadBird]

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team? Real happy for the audience this year, but the audiences pleasure is starting to come at the price of the students who this is for.
Minimum you get a UI with 4 on a device synced with the match timer. 2 red buttons two blue buttons, 2 foul buttons, 2 tech foul buttons. Push a button give a team the appropriate penalty and give it a time stamp.
I'm no programmer but I feel like thats a fairly simple app to create considering all the scouting Apps I see out there.

[Ty Tremblay]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team? Real happy for the audience this year, but the audiences pleasure is starting to come at the price of the students who this is for.
Minimum you get a UI with 4 on a device synced with the match timer. 2 red buttons two blue buttons, 2 foul buttons, 2 tech foul buttons. Push a button give a team the appropriate penalty and give it a time stamp.
I'm no programmer but I feel like thats a fairly simple app to create considering all the scouting Apps I see out there.

It's not the app that's the problem, it's the human running the app. There are a lot of fouls you can get this year, and they're all named with a letter-number code. It is too taxing for someone to remember all the foul codes, find them on the screen, and assign them to the right robot... while also entering the scoring information for defense crossing and actually catching fouls as well.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

It's not the app that's the problem, it's the human running the app. There are a lot of fouls you can get this year, and they're all named with a letter-number code. It is too taxing for someone to remember all the foul codes, find them on the screen, and assign them to the right robot while also entering the scoring information for defense crossing and actually catching fouls as well.

Yeah that sounds pretty bad.
Why wouldn't it just be mark when during a match a foul or tech foul happened, mark if its a foul or tech foul, and post match if a ref remembers what foul it was they could assign it to the appropriate time stamp.
It doesn't sound like they are using an app for match scoring it sounds like they are using a digital menu one would use behind the counter of a fast food joint to place orders to track match data.

[Ty Tremblay]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Yeah that sounds pretty bad.
Why wouldn't it just be mark when during a match a foul or tech foul happened, mark if its a foul or tech foul, and post match if a ref remembers what foul it was they could assign it to the appropriate time stamp.
It doesn't sound like they are using an app for match scoring it sounds like they are using a digital menu one would use behind the counter of a fast food joint to place orders to track match data.

Ah, so are you saying the refs shouldn't record exactly which team broke which rule and why during a match? What you're describing is almost exactly what is done, minus the timestamps and the post-match association of fouls.

They use custom software written specifically for the FMS and this game.

[ayo_christina]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team?

Would a time stamp in 150 seconds of game play be that beneficial? Chances are you want this time stamp to compare to video which will under no circumstances be reviewed by officials. If the review is for internal benefits (which I totally understand) all you really need to know is the infraction and you can fish it out on your own. From personal experience I've delayed entering fouls until certain another ref hasn't entered or there is a lull in game play so I don't miss anything. The stamp could be way off. Sometimes I'll remember fouls in terms of "red robot with sick powder coating just pinned too long". Taking the time to track the numbers on the bumper is something I would do after the match. Entering this information real time would take too long. Even with a revised ref interface (which it is this year) it's still a lot of information to enter.

Think texting and driving. You actually lose a lot of time when you're entering fouls and scoring.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

Ah, so are you saying the refs shouldn't record exactly which team broke which rule and why during a match? What you're describing is almost exactly what is done, minus the timestamps and the post-match association of fouls.

They use custom software written specifically for the FMS and this game.

Absolutely I can't actually think of a time when note taking is prioritized over the current even except for in research. In soccer when a penalty occurs they create a break and a space and time where they can accurately record things and assess the situation. Most child care places train so that when a medical emergency happens you tend to the emergency and later fill out an injury form. In practice this would be healthier for a game because it would translate to refs pointing out flaws during a match and moving to correct them which on its own might be more then enough for someone on drive team to go "oh wait thats against the rules". If they use a custom built FMS for the game and they do use a letter number code for fouls which the input into software then they actually do have all the information they are currently saying the refs do not have in update 13. It just doesn't add up to me.