Taking the Bag out of Bag Day

[NShep98]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

TLR If you had access to your robot in this time period after bag what would you be doing with it?

Personally I'd be going with outreach and photo shoots for web content because the robot is always a mess by the time we are done running it through competitions.

Great question. I personally would love to have some extra practice time, seeing as we pretty much finished the robot ON bag day. There aren't any plans to add anything substantial as of now. It would be nice though to be able to show off the robot to the different schools that make up our team without worrying about what the manual considers "brief" unbagging.

I guess there's always our Access Period.

[abigailthefox]

Oh gosh...TEST ALL THE CODE!!!
I am (somehow?) doing most of the programming this year, and it's my first year doing this.
The robot spent way too long in the design phase, and consequently wasn't built until late in build season.
Thus, we have no auton. And basic drive code that someone wrote before we had a robot, and therefore needs tweaks. (Okay, technically we HAVE auton, but our encoders are broken and therefore...no auton).
Writing vision recognition would also be a plus. Testing camera view and feed.
Driver practice would be key.
We also shorted our robot on bag night, so replacing those electronics (we shorted it at 11:56 pm...) would be key.
Overall, our team is pretty low-budget, and we don't have a practice bot. It would be a great opportunity for us to work some more on general practice and testing (two things that really tend to get neglected on our team during build season, but that are crucial in the end).

[DaneeR]

what if they made a rule- NO PRACTICE BOTS!!!!! Our little team has a hard enough time affording and building one bot. How we've done so well against teams that have such a ridiculous advantage is amazing (depending on the year anyways- this is my first year, last year our team bombed, but many years have done quite well)

I think it's good to make everyone take some time off. I just saw my kid has a C in geometry- which he finds laughably easy. not cool. He's been obviously blowing off study time for robot and musical (which of course have to be the same 8 week-ish period since we do early districts).

Maybe there should be more restrictions, like not being able to spend more then 30 hours per week on the bot?? I don't know.

But some restrictions to help smaller teams with less funds would be nice. Bag or no bag.

If we did have more time with the bot, that sure would be nice. Lots of stuff we never got to test!!!! thankfully we do go to 2 districts, which is probably why we often manage to do well.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by DaneeR

what if they made a rule- NO PRACTICE BOTS!!!!! Our little team has a hard enough time affording and building one bot. How we've done so well against teams that have such a ridiculous advantage is amazing (depending on the year anyways- this is my first year, last year our team bombed, but many years have done quite well)

I think it's good to make everyone take some time off. I just saw my kid has a C in geometry- which he finds laughably easy. not cool. He's been obviously blowing off study time for robot and musical (which of course have to be the same 8 week-ish period since we do early districts).

Maybe there should be more restrictions, like not being able to spend more then 30 hours per week on the bot?? I don't know.

But some restrictions to help smaller teams with less funds would be nice. Bag or no bag.

If we did have more time with the bot, that sure would be nice. Lots of stuff we never got to test!!!! thankfully we do go to 2 districts, which is probably why we often manage to do well.

Why bring the top down if you can bring the bottom up?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Knufire

Why bring the top down if you can bring the bottom up?

so people can feel better

[2544HCRC]

100% Agree that FIRST should just do away with bag day. Elimination would level the playing field in more than 1 way. I agree that teams that can afford multiple bots and multiple regionals are at an extreme advantage. No bag day would mean that teams would need no reason to have multiple bots, except for this year maybe when extended practice might grind robots into dust, but that is another issue.

It might also level out the playing field throughout the season. If you are a one robot, one regional team, it isn't worth it to go to a late season event currently. Many of the teams there are at a 2nd or 3rd event. Kinks have been worked out, parts changed, etc. No bag day would mean that a week 5 one robot team could redesign an entire robot after week one.

I can also see an argument for a bag AFTER your first event. this sets all kinds of interesting tradeoffs. If you are a superpower team and you put your bot out there in week one, your design can be taken and reverse engineered and tweaked. Maybe someone now makes a robot that is better than yours and meets you in week 5. Or do you wait for events later in the season to see what is going to happen and lengthen your build season? Of course, you couldn't lie to prospective mentors and spouses that "It's only six weeks..."

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

so people can feel better

People need to stop worrying about people feeling better about themselves and start learning how to become a high resource team.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by 2544HCRC

100% Agree that FIRST should just do away with bag day. Elimination would level the playing field in more than 1 way.engineered and tweaked. .."

The more restrictions you lift, the bigger advantage you give to teams with the most resources - especially smart engineers. Sure, teams that struggle would have better robots than they do now. However, those teams that dominate now would have much better robots. It would unlevel the playing field, if anything....

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

People need to stop worrying about people feeling better about themselves and start learning how to become a high resource team.

just bee yourself

[hrench]

One thing I think it would change for sure would be it would throw cold water on reveal- video season.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by DaneeR

what if they made a rule- NO PRACTICE BOTS!!!!! Our little team has a hard enough time affording and building one bot. How we've done so well against teams that have such a ridiculous advantage is amazing (depending on the year anyways- this is my first year, last year our team bombed, but many years have done quite well)

I think it's good to make everyone take some time off. I just saw my kid has a C in geometry- which he finds laughably easy. not cool. He's been obviously blowing off study time for robot and musical (which of course have to be the same 8 week-ish period since we do early districts).

Maybe there should be more restrictions, like not being able to spend more then 30 hours per week on the bot?? I don't know.

But some restrictions to help smaller teams with less funds would be nice. Bag or no bag.


If we did have more time with the bot, that sure would be nice. Lots of stuff we never got to test!!!! thankfully we do go to 2 districts, which is probably why we often manage to do well.

Welcome to FRC!

A couple of things:
A part of FIRST is engaging with the community in order to bring in funds... Being in a small town is a disadvantage in a lot of ways, but in Palymra, you do have access to some healthy corporations. Your team should reach out to them and seek sponsorship. I don't see Dechert Dynamics Corporation listed as a sponsor for you - a machining firm base in your town of population 8,000. They would be a wonderfully natural fit for you - if not in terms of cash, likely in terms of access to some very good equipment and/or mentors.

Another part of FIRST is spreading the inspiration. I don't know how many kids your team has, but see if you get get close to 25 or 30 active members. This provides the manpower to build an additional bot. The local high school has about 1,000 kids and has solid academics - surely there are at least 30 with nerd-like tendencies?

A major part of developing a strong program is building the foundation with kids, sponsors, and mentors. The vast majority of programs can do just that.... It takes work, but a lot of businesses love giving money to robotics programs - especially local tech, engineering and machining firms that look at us as training grounds for their future employees.

As for the C- in geometry. Yes, the kids need to learn balance. Our kids don't do the spring theater production. Good high schools have many great opportunities and it is not possible to do them all. Kids have to make choices. (We lost a lot of kids to marching band the last couple of years.)

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

People need to stop worrying about people feeling better about themselves and start learning how to become a high resource team.

High performing team /=/ high resource team. There are socioeconomic factors that stop some teams from having as many resources at the top tier. However, you can often perform as well as them just strategically using what you have.

[JackFisher]

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

Now I am not suggesting we implement this, I am not suggesting this is a superior system I am just curious as to how robotics teams would react to the following changes in bag and tag rules.

The bag is replaced with the following system.
You no longer have to physically put your robot in a bag instead you weigh the robot on the night that would normally be bag and tag and record that weight you also have a copy of the bill of materials for your robot. This would go into a sealed envelope night of bagging and would not be opened until a later point where I will specify.

You now can drive, and program your robot and use it in whatever way you want between bag night and your competition. HOWEVER the only parts you are allowed to add to the robot are COMPLETELY COTS parts to REPLACE a part. Adding parts that would cause you to adjust the bill of material however is not allowed. (I'm trying to create a state in which you can only repair your robot so stop build date is preserved but you have access to the robot).

When you get to competition your robot is weighed again, and the bill of materials in the envelope is taken and incorporated into inspection. Any changes in weight between bag and now that indicate your robot is heavier subtracts from your withholding allowance. Major deviations of weight on your robot flag you for further inspection. (Really really trying to create a safeguard system).

What I think or what I have tried to just create is a system where your robot is free to access during the downtime between bag and competition. In this time using your robot is done at your own risk, if you want programmers to try different auto on it you can go for it but if in auto program causes the robot to damage itself you cannot repair it. If you want drivers to take it out for a spin for a bit of practice by all means you can do that if the driver messes up and breaks something tough luck.

If this system were to be in effect (and I know its a lot to think about) what would you do with the extra time you have on your robot?

err

TLR If you had access to your robot in this time period after bag what would you be doing with it?

Personally I'd be going with outreach and photo shoots for web content because the robot is always a mess by the time we are done running it through competitions.

You can build an entire new robot out of cots components from VEX. You'd see a bunch of elite team copies with this method.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by JackFisher

You can build an entire new robot out of cots components from VEX. You'd see a bunch of elite team copies with this method.

Thats true but I dunno how many teams would be fly with waiting 6 weeks to try and adapt to another design with however much time they have between their "tag" day and their competition. Even with a mirror match of two vex copies wouldn't it boil down to a skill matchup?

Also I fear this thread is going to be derailed by the more heated debate soon.

[hawktomatoes]

Originally Posted by 2544HCRC

100% Agree that FIRST should just do away with bag day. Elimination would level the playing field in more than 1 way. I agree that teams that can afford multiple bots and multiple regionals are at an extreme advantage. No bag day would mean that teams would need no reason to have multiple bots, except for this year maybe when extended practice might grind robots into dust, but that is another issue.

The only problem I see with this is that there is a 6 week build season for a reason and extending it gives some teams more of an advantage for driver practice and ability to alter their robot. You'd be seeing more 5-7 competition week robots at champs most likely. I can also see regionals being moved out farther in competition season so they have more time to change things and perfect their robot. If they could figure out a way to make this fair, I think that it would be a great idea. FIRST is changing a lot currently, maybe the bag day rule will sometime be changed. I just hope it's for the better.