Palmetto Regional Week 0.5

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by jajabinx124

True. I didn't answer the previous question.

I think stopping and shooting would nullify the traverse attempt. Because to traverse means to move, pass, or go across. Say a robot is crossing a defense and stops with their bumpers hovering over the outerworks. Since they have stopped moving wouldn't it nullify it?

I'm not a 100% sure this is the best reasoning though.

Traversing is defined as having your robot's bumpers in the volume of the outerworks. That is in the rules and has been clarified in the Q&A and team updates. At least from my point of view that doesn't really seem debatable. If it is then we built the wrong robot...

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Traversing is defined as having your robot's bumpers in the volume of the outerworks. That is in the rules and has been clarified in the Q&A and team updates. At least from my point of view that doesn't really seem debatable. If it is then we built the wrong robot...

I see no rule violation crossing stopping (touching their courtyard) shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after. Would be most efficient scoring if a team can pull it off. Why go further and then backtrack in if you don't have to?

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause.

Yeah. If the Q&A clarifies it (I think I'm looking at the right questions).. then it should be legal unless they clarify/change it in the team updates.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation crossing stopping shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after.

By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation crossing stopping (touching their courtyard) shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after. Would be most efficient scoring if a team can pull it off. Why go further and then backtrack in if you don't have to?

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

The way I read that rule is you cannot lob boulders into courtyard or act as a defense conduit... If a bot crosses pauses and completes the shot and continues to traverse then the boulder was properly introduced was it not? The robot in my scenario would not back up but continue on ant the boulder in their courtyard at shot time.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricH

If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.

So Erich is it legal in your opinion like many of us envisioned to cross pause/shoot to then score both a HG and a successful cross in one action? (5 +5=10) then rinse repeat as long as we complete the crossing each time?

Cross...pause/shoot(bumper hang) ..continue into courtyard....exit...repeat

I have no delusions this is easy but do want to know if its an option to get those points/scoring moves efficiently as possible.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Boltman

So Erich is it legal in your opinion like many of us envisioned to cross pause/shoot to then score both a HG and a successful cross in one action? (5 +5=10) then rinse repeat as long as we complete the crossing each time?

I have no delusions this is easy but do want to know if its an option to get those points efficiently.

You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?

To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).


If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricH

You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?

To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).


If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.

I know you read the rules like I do and trust your judgement... I think its ok but that's just me, I'll have my drivers check



I think its legal based on attached rules Q532 and 900


Game Manual - Game » Game Rules » Defense Rules
Q532 Q. "A robot carrying a boulder crosses a defense into their opponents' courtyard. They then move back such that a part of its bumpers are within the opponent’s outer works while their robot is still in contact with the courtyard carpet. They attempt to line up a shot, but an opponent contacts them. Does the opponent incur a G43 penalty?"
FRC3322 on 2016-01-14 | 16 Followers
A. This situation does demonstrate a violation of G43. Per G43: "A ROBOT is considered traversing the opponent’s OUTER WORKS if any part of its BUMPERS are within the opponent’s OUTER WORKS." Even if you are shooting a BOULDER, you would be protected by G43 if your BUMPERS are within the OUTER WORKS. <-----Rangles scenario OK

Q900 Q. In Regards to Rule G-39 My question is I have seen teams at Week 0 events parking on the COURTYARD side of the OUTER WORKS and in contact with one of the OUTER WORKS ramps and shooting the BOULDER, in my opinion this violates rule G-39 because the OUTER WORKS or sitting on top of carpet and the OUTER WORKS are defined as having an infinitely tall volume. We just need a clarification as of how this rule will be enforced.
FRC0313 on 2016-02-23
A. G39 prohibits launching BOULDERS unless a ROBOT is: "in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet." A ROBOT which is contacting the carpet in the opponent's COURTYARD and also contacting the PLATFORM ramps (or any other non-carpet part of the OUTER WORKS) meets these criteria and therefore is not in violation of G39 <---My scenario seems OK but will clarify

[The Lucas]

Originally Posted by EricH

You're sure you want to risk giving your opponents points based on my opinion?

To tell the truth, I saw that one myself, too. I actually want to say that I saw a Q&A about the topic, but I can't find it now (Q&A is really annoying to search through--don't they teach spelling in schools anymore?).


If I was you, I'd double-check at the drivers' meeting.

Is it either of these Q&A

Q532 in my judgement establishes that no matter what you are currently doing (lining up a shot in this case), if your bumpers are in Outer Works you in a protected traversal.

Q702 in my judgement establishes that Boulders entering the Courtyard (and possibly goal) and Crossings are independent events and in many cases the Boulder enters first. It builds upon the G40 Blue Box example B that robot must complete the Crossing after entering the Boulder, or at least not leave the Outer Works (abort the Crossing)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by The Lucas

Is it either of these Q&A

Q532 in my judgement establishes that no matter what you are currently doing (lining up a shot in this case), if your bumpers are in Outer Works you in a protected traversal.

Q702 in my judgement establishes that Boulders entering the Courtyard (and possibly goal) and Crossings are independent events and in many cases the Boulder enters first. It builds upon the G40 Blue Box example B that robot must complete the Crossing after entering the Boulder, or at least not leave the Outer Works (abort the Crossing)

That would be them.

The big problem is that neither one refers to G40 directly. Still a good question to ask the head ref (ideally with reference to these two questions in hand).

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.

Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)

I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...the-outerworks

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...the-outerworks

Are you resting your bumpers during a cross then continuing in or backing into them for protection after a valid cross?