Palmetto Regional Week 0.5

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Keefe2471

First of all, congrats on the win! Very cool robot and the hanging and auto every round really looked cool. Do you think the lack of safe zone was a lack of knowledge by the referees and a mistake? I was under the impression that having your bumpers over the defenses was the only requirement to qualify as "traversing" and while you were traversing you were safe. It will be a very different type of competition than I thought it would be if no one is safe while they shoot.

Thanks.

We assumed like everyone else that as long as your bumper was over the outer works you could not be touched, from our perspective that was not how the rule was being called, attached is a screen shot from the stream of quarterfinal 1 match 1 where it is very obvious we have are actually contacting a defense, and yet no penalty was called, ironically it was announced as an "even more impressive, penalty free match". When we questioned after the match we were told the referees couldn't see it.

I just want to make it clear, I am not trying to bad mouth the volunteers at the event, in fact this was the first event I have ever attended where every volunteer, and employee of the venue were extraordinarily pleasant. I just wanted to show what was meant above.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause.

Yeah. If the Q&A clarifies it (I think I'm looking at the right questions).. then it should be legal unless they clarify/change it in the team updates.

[Rangel]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation crossing stopping shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after.

By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

We assumed like everyone else that as long as your bumper was over the outer works you could not be touched, from our perspective that was not how the rule was being called, attached is a screen shot from the stream of quarterfinal 1 match 1 where it is very obvious we have are actually contacting a defense, and yet no penalty was called, ironically it was announced as an "even more impressive, penalty free match". When we questioned after the match we were told the referees couldn't see it.

I just want to make it clear, I am not trying to bad mouth the volunteers at the event, in fact this was the first event I have ever attended where every volunteer, and employee of the venue were extraordinarily pleasant. I just wanted to show what was meant above.

Yea that's what I thought teams can't rely on that call. Thanks for verifying it.

[MARS_James]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I see no rule violation crossing stopping (touching their courtyard) shooting then continuing the traversal. A traversal is not defined as a singular action without pause. I think "bumper hanging" shots will be allowed if you continue into the courtyard after. Would be most efficient scoring if a team can pull it off. Why go further and then backtrack in if you don't have to?

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

By the definition of traversing, it should be allowed even if the robot doesn't finish going over. There are no rules forcing a robot to traverse if it ever started traversing. There are only rules protecting robots that are in the act of traversing.

Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

The way I read that rule is you cannot lob boulders into courtyard or act as a defense conduit... If a bot crosses pauses and completes the shot and continues to traverse then the boulder was properly introduced was it not? The robot in my scenario would not back up but continue on ant the boulder in their courtyard at shot time.

[Rangel]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Traversing to me and reading the rules means completing the action.. so if you don't end up in their courtyard fully IMO it won't count as a cross. So if you want 5 pts it seems you will have to cross fully (another 5 if you hit a HG in the process)

I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...the-outerworks

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

I was talking about specifically about scoring a high goal while your bumpers are resting in the outerworks. Finishing the cross doesn't mean anything since you only get points for going one way. This Q&A clarification helps reinforce the idea that you don't have to go over a defense to have the traversing benefit.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...the-outerworks

Are you resting your bumpers during a cross then continuing in or backing into them for protection after a valid cross?

[Rangel]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Are you resting your bumpers during a cross then continuing in or backing into them for protection after a valid cross?

The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.

I hope so too. Cause that's our teams main strategy at lake superior for scoring boulders in the high goal.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

The scenario I was talking about was backing into them for protection after a complete cross and then shooting. That being said, G43's not being called will hurt a lot of teams who made the scenario a primary shooting method. Hopefully missed G43's are the rarity rather than the norm.

You might want to notify the ref that's you intention it "should" be protected. However I'm not sure in real action if it'll get called all the time as 179 showed (refs have a lot to keep them busy) . Ref may not have good line of sight to your bumpers. There is no instant reply either.

Better have a plan B...we think alike and are rooting for it to be true as its in the rules. But real live action may dictate otherwise.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by MARS_James

This is the rule that makes it illegeal:

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)

They then define crossing:
CROSS an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent
DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that
its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully
contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricH

If you look at the examples in the blue boxes, particularly example B, there is no requirement for the robot to remain in contact with the Boulder throughout the Crossing.

So Erich is it legal in your opinion like many of us envisioned to cross pause/shoot to then score both a HG and a successful cross in one action? (5 +5=10) then rinse repeat as long as we complete the crossing each time?

Cross...pause/shoot(bumper hang) ..continue into courtyard....exit...repeat

I have no delusions this is easy but do want to know if its an option to get those points/scoring moves efficiently as possible.

[Jetweb]

Originally Posted by Boltman

You might want to notify the ref that's you intention it should be protected. However I'm not sure in real action if it'll get called all the time as 179 showed.
Better have a plan B.

We didn't press the issue as it didn't affect the outcome of a match.

I'm fairly confident as the events move on this will be watched more closely and called more often. There were very few attempts made at shooting from the outer-works this weekend and they can't catch everything.

Ref's did a great job keeping track of defense crossings which was way more important in my book.