pic: Growth of FIRST in Michigan

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

FiM runs districts with the minimalist philosophy.

Dr. Joe J.

how much does the average event cost?

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

how much does the average event cost?

I don't know specifics about FiM's costs, but if you take a look at the Regional & District Planning guides FIRST posts (http://www.firstinspires.org/resourc...lanning-guides) they have the average regional costing about $150,000 and the average district costing about $25,000.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

I don't know specifics about FiM's costs, but if you take a look at the Regional & District Planning guides FIRST posts (http://www.firstinspires.org/resourc...lanning-guides) they have the average regional costing about $150,000 and the average district costing about $25,000.

Since we are going through our first district season, I am well aware of this document. I was asking what the costs in Michigan are since Joe said minimalist.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

how much does the average event cost?

Less than $41,000, probably

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

how much does the average event cost?

As someone who has been on the planning committee for the Midland District (formerly known as the Great Lakes Bay District) since we started it two years ago, I can tell you the cost to run our event the first year was approximately $24,000 due to a lot of one-time purchases (floor tarps being probably the biggest cost) we had to make. Going forward we expect our yearly cost to be in the range of $15,000 - $17,000 per event.

As for cost to the teams, in Michigan, teams still pay the $5000 registration fee, but instead of 1 event, they get 2 as part of that fee. If they choose to go to a 3rd event, the cost is $500. It is also worth noting that, for the most part, the district events do not actually get any of the registration money, and have to do their own fundraising to cover the bulk of the costs associated with running an event.

The cost for teams to attend states is either $4000 or $5000 (can't remember) but any team affiliated with a public school can get that fee paid for by grant money set aside for teams by the State of Michigan. There is also similar grant money available for public school teams that qualify for the world championship.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by cbale2000

As someone who has been on the planning committee for the Midland District (formerly known as the Great Lakes Bay District) since we started it two years ago, I can tell you the cost to run our event the first year was approximately $24,000 due to a lot of one-time purchases (floor tarps being probably the biggest cost) we had to make. Going forward we expect our yearly cost to be in the range of $15,000 - $17,000 per event.

As for cost to the teams, in Michigan, teams still pay the $5000 registration fee, but instead of 1 event, they get 2 as part of that fee. If they choose to go to a 3rd event, the cost is $500. It is also worth noting that, for the most part, the district events do not actually get any of the registration money, and have to do their own fundraising to cover the bulk of the costs associated with running an event.

The cost for teams to attend states is either $4000 or $5000 (can't remember) but any team affiliated with a public school can get that fee paid for by grant money set aside for teams by the State of Michigan. There is also similar grant money available for public school teams that qualify for the world championship.

I don't speak for Matt, but I think we both learned something from seeing you all started at $24k and are down to 15-17k. What kind of fundraising do/did you take into consideration? Does it pool from sources similar to those teams could use?

[cbale2000]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I don't speak for Matt, but I think we both learned something from seeing you all started at $24k and are down to 15-17k. What kind of fundraising do/did you take into consideration? Does it pool from sources similar to those teams could use?

Thankfully Midland is home to Dow Chemical, who generously sponsors our District Event, our parent organization FIRST of the Great Lakes Bay Region, and a number of area FRC teams (including the event Host teams) through our parent organization.

We've also gotten additional funding from Nexteer Automotive (which also sponsors a number of area teams directly), Dow Corning, Hemlock Semiconductor, and a handful of other sponsors.

Our specific relationship with our sponsors varies; some companies allocate funds that are specifically for the district and separate from funds they allocate for teams. Some sponsors prefer to sponsor just the event itself, for various reasons. And finally some sponsors simply donate money to FIRST of the Great Lakes Bay Region and allow us to allocate it wherever it's needed (for the event, teams, or otherwise).

[Jim Zondag]

Joe,
Thanks for sharing my graph to all.
The key to the growth of FIRST hinges on 2 things.
1. Reducing participation costs
2. Increasing Return on Investment.

When we recreated the District System 8 years ago, these were our objectives and these have never changed.
The growth that that you see is a direct product of accomplishing these two goals. We are not done, we are just getting started.
We work to reduce event and operating costs wherever possible.
We use the money we save to help fund initiation costs for new teams and sustainability grants for existing teams.
We have worked with our state government to secure over $7Million in grants.
Many teams in our state play their entire season without ever paying any registration fees.
We have proven beyond any doubt that reducing costs will dramatically increase growth in FRC.
However, our cost reductions are artificial. We are offsetting the high cost of FIRST's enrollment fees with government money. In the grand scheme of things this is not sustainable. If administrations change, if the economy shifts, these grants may go away.

So the real question is: If FIRST really wants growth, as Dean repeatedly says they do, and they have real proof of what cost reduction can do to fuel growth, then why do they not ACTUALLY reduce program enrollment costs?
After 25years, and 100X growth in scale, there is still no price break from HQ.

We at FiM operate on a thin operating budget.
Our total operating costs are less than $1000/team/year.
FIRSTs costs are about 10 times this much, despite the fact that a significant portion of the league are now in Districts and these events are not financed by FIRST anymore.

If we ever want Robotics to be a sport in its own right, program enrollment costs must come down. Other leagues understand this. FIRST still apparently does not.

"It is not the idea......It's the execution."

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

Joe,
Thanks for sharing my graph to all.
<snip>

Jim,
I was an idiot not to include that I got this chart from you. Sorry about that. Glad you are not upset that I shared it. There was another thread that talked about MO going to districts and I wanted to get the chart online someplace that I could link to it from within a message, so why not upload it to CD?

I didn't think that this would then start its own thread. But it did and that turned out to be good too.

Thanks for adding your perspective on this. I know that a lot of people think that MI is an anomaly because of the Auto Industry. And, yes, that helps but honestly, most of the growth is coming from places that have more in common with the more rural areas of NY, WI or WA than they do with Metro Detroit.

There is nothing I know of in the MI experience that could not be duplicated in dozens of other states.

Joe J.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

...There is nothing I know of in the MI experience that could not be duplicated in dozens of other states...

You would have to duplicate at least one Gail Alpert, and I don't know if that is possible just yet. She has more drive and passion for spreading FIRST than anyone I know. Though, I'm sure you could find someone that is near her level if you look good and hard.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

You would have to duplicate at least one Gail Alpert, and I don't know if that is possible just yet. She has more drive and passion for spreading FIRST than anyone I know. Though, I'm sure you could find someone that is near her level if you look good and hard.

This is truth. I refer to Gail Alpert as the "Super RD", even if she isn't actually an RD.

When I hear about the all the great work Gail and FiM are doing, I feel like we're living in the dark ages over here in CA (and that's not just because our game is medieval themed this year!)

Great work Gail, Jim and the whole FiM crew. I wish certain individuals in our community would celebrate FiM's excellence, rather than diminish it or write it off!

-Mike

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

This is truth. I refer to Gail Alpert as the "Super RD", even if she isn't actually an RD.

<snip>

Yes, Gail is amazing and FiM would not be where it is now without her (and frankly a number of others as well) working their fingers to the bone on this.

BUT... ...Gail was blazing a new trail. Others can follow without nearly the heroic effort required.

The chart that started this thread off should be inspiring copy cats all over the country if not the world.

Dr. Joe J.

[Jim Zondag]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

There is nothing I know of in the MI experience that could not be duplicated in dozens of other states.

Agree, the road is paved, please follow.

If we ever want Robotics to be a sport which competes with 'real' sports, then we all need to up our game. Sure after 25 years, we have had great success and now have tens of thousands of participants, but in the grand scheme of things, this is nothing. There MILLIONS of kids who play basketball, and that it just one of several main stream sports. If we truly expect 'cultural transformation', then we need to get MUCH larger, and do it MUCH faster.

Reducing participation costs and increasing ROI to bring us closer to parity with mainstream youth activities are the best way to achieve this. Ignoring this reality will restrict growth until this change is made.

BTW: Here in Michigan, according to the data we have, in 2016 we now have more high school students participating in FIRST Robotics than we have playing Hockey. So we have actually finally passed one of the 'real' sports. Can any other robotics organization on Earth claim this?

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

...
BTW: Here in Michigan, according to the data we have, in 2016 we now have more high school students participating in FIRST Robotics than we have playing Hockey. So we have actually finally passed one of the 'real' sports. Can any other robotics organization on Earth claim this?

If you compare VEX or FIRST in Virginia to Virginia hockey, I think there is a good chance the comparison might turn out well.

However, before you could collect the stats you might need to explain to Virginians what hockey is.

More seriously, Virginia's Prince William County schools (with Loudoun and Fairfax starting to catch up) almost certainly have more students in robotics programs (a mix of VRC, FRC, FTC, FLL, VIQ, SeaPerch, and whatever I might have forgotten) than those schools have in several of their sports programs. That's nothing to sneeze at when you consider that PWC has a total population of around 450K.

The FIM and PWC/VA examples are very different in some ways, and much alike in others. If both remain successful, maybe their influences will merge into a cultural tsunami somewhere around Indianapolis.

Blake

[wilsonmw04]

in FiM events have you ever had the following:
extra paperwork outside of STIMS required by FiM to go to an event?
Limitations on the amount of power you can draw in your pits?


Trying to find out what is normal/accepted and what is not.