Withholding Allowance

[FrankJ]

Q&A tends to very literal when interpreting rules like this so I don't expect any changes for this year. Also if you have not bagged your practice bots, you are too late. You needed to do it before last Tues. midnight.

[PayneTrain]

Maybe if withholding allowances are hard to regulate...
Maybe if the definition of a ROBOT is very fluid and difficult to interpret w/r/t what you put in the almighty bag...
Maybe if the way teams use the bag system in a good faith effort to construct and store spares for an obviously brutal game still gets called into question for their integrity and the like...
Maybe if there are concerns people could use the large gray area of the bag and tag system to a way that flies entirely out of the realm of reasonable behavior but still stay within the letter of the law...
Maybe if some teams choose to build 3 robots just to keep their students engaged while a functional robot sits wrapped in a plastic tarp in the same room...
Maybe if teams are still meeting as regularly at the beginning of the 16 week season as they are at the end...
Maybe if it is still hard to teach people new to FIRST how the whole bag system works and the pure absurdity of the scenario we are placed into by HQ is made very obvious from outside the bubble of FRC...
Maybe if we are all here to inspire and recognize science in technology in a robotics competition...

Make an up or down decision that says either teams can keep their hands on the competition robot for the entirety of 4 months or tell teams to sit on their hands until their competition day comes. All sides have been and will continue to (rightfully) lawyer the rules one way or the other.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Maybe if withholding allowances are hard to regulate...
Maybe if the definition of a ROBOT is very fluid and difficult to interpret w/r/t what you put in the almighty bag...
Maybe if the way teams use the bag system in a good faith effort to construct and store spares for an obviously brutal game still gets called into question for their integrity and the like...
Maybe if there are concerns people could use the large gray area of the bag and tag system to a way that flies entirely out of the realm of reasonable behavior but still stay within the letter of the law...
Maybe if some teams choose to build 3 robots just to keep their students engaged while a functional robot sits wrapped in a plastic tarp in the same room...
Maybe if teams are still meeting as regularly at the beginning of the 16 week season as they are at the end...
Maybe if it is still hard to teach people new to FIRST how the whole bag system works and the pure absurdity of the scenario we are placed into by HQ is made very obvious from outside the bubble of FRC...
Maybe if we are all here to inspire and recognize science in technology in a robotics competition...

Make an up or down decision that says either teams can keep their hands on the competition robot for the entirety of 4 months or tell teams to sit on their hands until their competition day comes. All sides have been and will continue to (rightfully) lawyer the rules one way or the other.

Preach it!

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Electronica1

Does this open up the possibility of bagging 2 or 3 robots, and then giving your extra robots to another team/eliminations partners and have them use it? You could essentially build your entire alliance. (since you can still let other teams use the parts you bring)

(Not saying I would do this, but saying that this could in theory happen now)

EVERYONE GETS A KIT BOT!

[Europa]

Another question my team had in relation to this conversation, could our team bring parts from our second robot as part of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE to replace other parts on our bagged robot and then bring the parts from the bagged robot back to our workshop to install on our second robot?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Europa

Another question my team had in relation to this conversation, could our team bring parts from our second robot as part of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE to replace other parts on our bagged robot and then bring the parts from the bagged robot back to our workshop to install on our second robot?

As long as the assembly or if you remove and return in COTS items to their COTS state and the fabricated and remaining assembled portions are under 30lbs then that is fully legal. You can then bring another possibly completely different portion under the 30lb limit to your next event. Go to 3 events and you can have a grandpa's axe/hammer situation where none of the robot you initially put in the bag is used at your 3rd event.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

Reading section 5.2 in the admin manual clearly calls out "the robot" and even says the two bag concept is specifically for disassembling the robot for ease
of transport. So the 120 lb limit is a part of what I'm getting at. The competition robot has a weight limit, and at stop build you bag the robot. Nothing in there says bag anything and everything you've built to that point.

Did they build the whole thing there from COTS components? The way I read it was they brought an assembled group of components.

I'm just looking for clarity on this, this has potential to be either a learning opportunity for a select few or a missed opportunity for a whole lot of teams.

If you actually want clarity then seek it from FIRST and not CD... I do agree with you though, the rules are about as clear as mud here... Though the people I spoke with (that have opinions I value) all agreed with our interpretation of the rules. We bagged one item that once inspected became a ROBOT and one really well constructed set of spare parts.

But you do bring up a good point! We did not bag our bumpers per R15:

Originally Posted by R15

All ROBOT elements (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT), with the exception of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE per R18, BUMPERS, and COTS items, must be bagged and sealed, by 11:59PM local time on Stop Build
Day, February 23, 2016 (refer to the Admin Manual Section 5 (5.3 Instructions for “Bag and Tag”).

But the ROBOT clearly includes BUMPERS:

Originally Posted by R1

The ROBOT must include all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, BUMPERS, and movement.

So we must have violated that rule too! The admin manual says "robot" and not "ROBOT" and the two are different...

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by marshall

...But the ROBOT clearly includes BUMPERS:...

As pointed out in a different thread. The GDC has two definitions of robot. One with bumpers and one without bumpers. That avoids the parallax paradox of keeping the bumpers on the outside of the frame perimeter.

Actually I think the rules in this area (unlike pneumatic regulators) are fairly clear. The problems comes from people trying inject what they think the rules should mean rather what is actually written. We could always go back to the crate days when you had a fixed volume & payed a penalty if your crate was over weight.

On a parallel conundrum, I voted today in the primaries. You should to if you are able. And often.

[JamesCH95]

I was really peeved when I first read that a team had brought two robots (note the un-capitalized usage). But then I read through this thread and arrived at the conclusion that what the Zebracorns had done was perfectly legal by the letter of the rules.

(1) The withholding allowance does not apply because everything was bagged at the right time
(2) There is no rule precluding bagging an illegal ROBOT. This includes robots that have too many Athenas, too many radios, weigh roughly twice as much as they should, and violate the cost rule
(3) As long as the ROBOT that touched carpet was inspected as legal they violated no rules

It is a brilliant interpretation of the rules, and I applaud the Zebracorns for their critical thinking and confidence.

[Dave McLaughlin]

Was the practice robot, or "spare parts" as it was dubbed, re-bagged at the conclusion of the competition, or was left it out of a bag so that it could be used for practice and development leading up to the next competition?

[meg]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

Was the practice robot, or "spare parts" as it was dubbed, re-bagged at the conclusion of the competition, or was left it out of a bag so that it could be used for practice and development leading up to the next competition?

Our spare parts were left unbagged and won't be returning to any other competitions excluding possibly some mechanisms weighing no more than 30 lbs.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

Was the practice robot, or "spare parts" as it was dubbed, re-bagged at the conclusion of the competition, or was left it out of a bag so that it could be used for practice and development leading up to the next competition?

It was left unbagged. We have two district events we are still preparing for.

[Brandon Holley]

I would just like to point out - and @marshall please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your thought process...

But due to Palmetto being a week 0.5, there was absolutely no incentive to NOT bag the practice robot. They were not going to have any time to work on it as they were traveling and heading to the event anyway.

Had their first event been a week 1 or a week 2 - I'm wondering if you would have made the same decision?

-Brando

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I would just like to point out - and @marshall please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your thought process...

But due to Palmetto being a week 0.5, there was absolutely no incentive to NOT bag the practice robot. They were not going to have any time to work on it as they were traveling and heading to the event anyway.

Had their first event been a week 1 or a week 2 - I'm wondering if you would have made the same decision?

-Brando

Absolutely correct.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I would just like to point out - and @marshall please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your thought process...

But due to Palmetto being a week 0.5, there was absolutely no incentive to NOT bag the practice robot. They were not going to have any time to work on it as they were traveling and heading to the event anyway.

Had their first event been a week 1 or a week 2 - I'm wondering if you would have made the same decision?

-Brando

The way I see it, they paid $4000 with the minimum objective of extending their build season and get practice matches on an official field.

You can cry foul over all of the tangible (financial) reasons this sounds absurd but other than that it's pretty rational