Palmetto Regional Week 0.5

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I concur I think teams expecting a ref to see the nuanced move of entering the courtyard and backing into "protection" are dreaming. The only way I see this working consistently is when crossing before you leave the platform (slight pause) you shoot HG because of the initial "protection" of the obvious crossing action.

...

Don't count on getting calls or credit. That's a failed assumption in a game as complex as this from a reffing standpoint (and scouting standpoint)

I disagree entirely. Although the onus is on the teams to clearly have their bumpers in the OUTER WORKS, the refs should be paying attention regardless. Remember, CROSSING is only one direction (Neutral Zone to Courtyard) but TRAVERSING is either direction. The protection clause applies to TRAVERSING. Regardless of if I have a ball and intend to shoot or not, the refs should be watching for when my bumpers cross into the OUTER WORKS, because I may be intending to TRAVERSE back to the Neutral Zone, not necessarily shoot.

I agree it is a tough game to ref, and refs will miss things, but it's also their job to enforce the rules as best as possible. If I do my best to make it obvious that my robot bumpers are in the OUTER WORKS, I should expect be protected from interference, regardless of when/how/from what direction I approach the OUTER WORKS.

*Disclaimer: My team is not shooting at all, and has a mechanism to open the Sally Port from the neutral zone so as not to rely on the "tap" method.*

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

I disagree entirely. Although the onus is on the teams to clearly have their bumpers in the OUTER WORKS, the refs should be paying attention regardless. Remember, CROSSING is only one direction (Neutral Zone to Courtyard) but TRAVERSING is either direction. The protection clause applies to TRAVERSING. Regardless of if I have a ball and intend to shoot or not, the refs should be watching for when my bumpers cross into the OUTER WORKS, because I may be intending to TRAVERSE back to the Neutral Zone, not necessarily shoot.

I agree it is a tough game to ref, and refs will miss things, but it's also their job to enforce the rules as best as possible. If I do my best to make it obvious that my robot bumpers are in the OUTER WORKS, I should expect be protected from interference, regardless of when/how/from what direction I approach the OUTER WORKS.

*Disclaimer: My team is not shooting at all, and has a mechanism to open the Sally Port from the neutral zone so as not to rely on the "tap" method.*

How do you expect a ref to pay that close attention to your bot with 5 others on field?

Basically the rule is in place so the other alliance cannot just defend entrances to to "easier" defenses all day and also so they cant trap a bot in a defense... the "shooting protection" is a secondary construct of the rule in the first place...relying on "bumper hang shooting protection" calls is dreaming. To many other things refs have a primary responsibility to track...like basic crossings.

These are volunteers and are human with a tough game to call.

They let slide many things in Palmetto..probably due to audience game play flow. Just like in NFL holding happens many times a game..gets called a few times. Too many "flags' creates audience fatigue.

[KrazyCarl92]

Originally Posted by Boltman

How do you expect a ref to pay that close attention to your bot?

Basically the rule is in place so the other alliance cannot just defend entrances to to "easier" defenses all day and also so they cant trap a bot in a defense... the "shooting protection" is a secondary construct of the rule in the first place...relying on shooting protection calls is dreaming

Shooter protection calls were the standard in 2012 and 2013. Why should this year be any different? I have heard from those close to the GDC that it was a very intentional construct of the rules to provide shooting protection in the outerworks.

Actually, a well-driven defensive robot could still block the entrance to easier defenses. As long as they are not touching an opposing robot in the outerworks they can still prevent access.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

Shooter protection calls were the standard in 2012 and 2013. Why should this year be any different? I have heard from those close to the GDC that it was a very intentional construct of the rules to provide shooting protection in the outerworks.

Actually, a well-driven defensive robot could still block the entrance to easier defenses. As long as they are not touching an opposing robot in the outerworks they can still prevent access.

Well if that's so I stand corrected, I just see it as an unlikely call though except maybe at highest levels with sharp shooting form 16 feet bots as the norm.

[Jessi Kaestle]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

Shooter protection calls were the standard in 2012 and 2013. Why should this year be any different?.

It shouldn't be. But just be aware that if it's not obvious or a ref didn't see it, they will likely err on the side of not issuing a penalty. So if you want to take advantage of the protection zone, make it obvious that you are in the protection zone.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Boltman

How do you expect a ref to pay that close attention to your bot with 5 others on field?

There are always 5 other robots (since 2005) that the refs have to pay attention to. My point was mainly that regardless of what a robot is doing, the OUTER WORKS is a protected zone. If my robot is near my opponents' OUTER WORKS, I expect the referees to be paying attention to it. Whether I'm shooting or traversing or just wandering aimlessly, being near the OUTER WORKS should invite the referees attention, just like any other FIRST game with protected zones. We haven't really had any in the last 2 years, but they used to be pretty common. 2011-2013 each had at least two different "protected" areas per alliance (loading zones and scoring zones).

Refs are human, for sure, but the OUTER WORKS protection is such a key part of the game mechanic this year that a robot anywhere near there should invite some attention from at least one ref, period. Perhaps FIRST needs to consider putting some kind of stripe on the edges of the plastic dividers so the refs can more easily see where the OUTER WORKS starts.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

There are always 5 other robots (since 2005) that the refs have to pay attention to. My point was mainly that regardless of what a robot is doing, the OUTER WORKS is a protected zone. If my robot is near my opponents' OUTER WORKS, I expect the referees to be paying attention to it. Whether I'm shooting or traversing or just wandering aimlessly, being near the OUTER WORKS should invite the referees attention, just like any other FIRST game with protected zones. We haven't really had any in the last 2 years, but they used to be pretty common. 2011-2013 each had at least two different "protected" areas per alliance (loading zones and scoring zones).

Refs are human, for sure, but the OUTER WORKS protection is such a key part of the game mechanic this year that a robot anywhere near there should invite some attention from at least one ref, period. Perhaps FIRST needs to consider putting some kind of stripe on the edges of the plastic dividers so the refs can more easily see where the OUTER WORKS starts.

Visibility is much less than in previous years take last 2 or most games ...basically open courts much easier to see protected zones with static features.

This year is so complex "bump hang" is probably really low on any priority list of ref calls. They are not in the middle of the game on every defense. They like both drive teams will have limited visibility and lots of action to take into account.

I agree they "should" call it but also see the difficulty in doing so. No instant replay.

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Visibility is much less than in previous years take last 2 or most games ...basically open courts much easier to see protected zones with static features.

This year is so complex "bump hang" is probably really low on any priority list of ref calls. They are not in the middle of the game on every defense. They like both drive teams will have limited visibility and lots of action to take into account.

I agree they "should" call it but also see the difficulty in doing so. No instant replay.

Good enforcement of this rule will be the difference between a good game that is remember for it's great bots, games, and moments & a game that is remember for it's bad refereeing, punishment bots got and boring games.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Visibility is much less than in previous years take last 2 or most games ...basically open courts much easier to see protected zones with static features.

There are at least 6 refs stationed along the side of the field, so they should have a MUCH better vantage point than the drivers to see the OUTER WORKS. If Refs are having trouble determining if robot are within protected zones, that's a much bigger deal than just whether or not you'll get the call when shooting.

I 100% agree it's on the teams to make it obvious they're within the OUTER WORKS, but a robot within the zone is within the zone, period. If a ref can't see that, it's an issue, shooter or not. There's no "priority" for a call. A robot with bumpers in the zone is TRAVERSING by definition of the rules, regardless of whether or not it's traversing (moving) in a colloquial sense. If refs can't see that occurance, that's a much larger problem than just for shooters trying to shoot from a protected region. Several robots will want to move into the protection of the OUTER WORKS before deploying or moving mechanisms to help them get across the obstacles.

For what it's worth, determining protection should be easier this year than in the past, since the refs aren't trying to determine robot contact with a patch or a tape line on the floor with the perspective of looking halfway across the field with parallax. There should be at least two refs with a direct line of sight down the planes which determine the start of the outer works.

Time will tell. Palmetto was a very early event, I expect as more refs experience and give feedback on the game, FIRST head refs will improve the guidance to their teams on best operating procedures and how to call things.

[laplacier]

Hello everyone, now that I've had some time to wind down and catch up on my duties post Palmetto I wanted to extend a thank you to everyone who attended or watched the event. Our team had its own challenges at the competition, but we had a blast with everyone we had a chance to speak with. I'd also like to send another thanks to the members of MARS and Garnet Squadron (and other teams I may have missed) for staying after the event and helping us with packing away FIRST's playing field and accessories to be sent off to the next event.

With the new teams at the event we got to see and experience mechanisms we had never attempted to build before. I, personally, was astonished by what some of the teams were able to develop during the short build season. We will be spending our off season learning how to develop those mechanisms with the students so we can be better prepared for games which may benefit from them in the future. Always be prepared!

Congratulations to the winning alliance this year! I look forward to seeing how well you guys perform at St. Louis!