Withholding Allowance

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by marshall

They were unbagged but make no mistake they were practice robots. I'm not sure when the 30 lbs would come into play to be honest. It seems to me like that happens at load-in. I never saw those robots or components being brought into the event so I am by no means accusing anyone of anything non-GP here... just pointing out that many teams do take their practice robots to competition.

What is the purpose of bringing a unbagged practice bot to an event that can't be loaded in, and leaving it in the trailer? The only reason I can think of that isn't a big temptation to getting spare parts after load in: the trailer is the teams storage at the shop, and they don't have somewhere else to put them. I think that is unlikely to be the case for the majority of teams. I do hope they were not being used for spare parts at an event.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by engunneer

What is the purpose of bringing a unbagged practice bot to an event that can't be loaded in, and leaving it in the trailer? The only reason I can think of that isn't a big temptation to getting spare parts after load in: the trailer is the teams storage at the shop, and they don't have somewhere else to put them. I think that is unlikely to be the case for the majority of teams. I do hope they were not being used for spare parts at an event.

If the spare parts are COTS parts, what is the issue?

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Better yet save your money and time and lets just get rid of Bag and Tag and call it even.

That would take us down from 4 robots to 2 robots in 2017, which would be a huge relief!

Now if only we could cut the number of 2017 FIRST Championships in half as well...

-Mike

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

That would take us down from 4 robots to 2 robots in 2017, which would be a huge relief!

Now if only we could cut the number of 2017 FIRST Championships in half as well...

-Mike

Well we might need 8 robots in that case...

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Europa

Another question my team had in relation to this conversation, could our team bring parts from our second robot as part of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE to replace other parts on our bagged robot and then bring the parts from the bagged robot back to our workshop to install on our second robot?

From how I think I understand your question, yes - but remember if you don't bag it at the end of your first event, and it's fabricated - make sure it is in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE for your next event's load-in if you want it back.

We bagged with 50lbs or so of ballast (machined for bolt holes & therefore not COTS steel), knowing we won't use it all... but can't bring it as WITHHOLDING. It'll all go back in the bag when we lock up again after unbag time & events, unless Frank surprises us all with a change to the bagging rules after this discussion. We want the ability to pop the individual plates in and out as we add/remove mechanisms, so in the bag they went.

[meg]

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin

I could not agree more, although we may have to settle for building 3.

Honestly? With 3 you're better off not bagging the second and using one with programming and the other mechanical in the lab. The ONLY reason it made sense to bag the second robot was how close the competition + bag day was. 2 days at competition can't compete with weeks of time in the lab, imo

[marshall]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Is the two bag limit going to be known as the Zebracorn amendment? Too bad they forgot to specify the bag size.

I hope not. I want the end of bag day to be known as the Zebracorn amendment. We've proven how silly it is twice now... maybe it will take a third time though.

[meg]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

Is the two bag limit going to be known as the Zebracorn amendment? Too bad they forgot to specify the bag size.

There was already a two bag limit actually. We had forgotten to put a few parts in those two bags, so shoved them in a trashbag. We were told that wasn't okay, so they ended up counting towards our withholding allowance. Had we not had enough weight in that, we would have had to leave it in the trailer.

[Keefe2471]

FRC is a tough challenge that causes wear and tear on robots over the course of the 3-4 competitions that some teams attend. I personally think that teams that have the resources to build a practice bot that is complete and finished enough to compete with their "real" robot also have the skills and know how to design a robot that doesn't break.

There are already rules that make sure the weight of all configurations sum to 120 pounds, so you can't bag different configurations without having issues. Also, any design that has enough fragility to warrant an entire robot worth of spares isn't going to do well. Even if you had unlimited weight to bring in, FRC is a game of attrition as much as anything else. The real competition in this game occurs during eliminations, and it's not likely you can replace entire mechanisms on your robot in a 5 min timeout.

Also, what about open bag time? Is there any limit on what goes on and comes off the robot during that time? If not, what prevents a team from bagging their spare robot in the open bag time before a district event? I could care less about how many spare parts each team brings in personally. I think that issues with upgrade parts are more of a challenge for FIRST to regulate and have the potential to exaggerate the differences between teams that have resources and those that do not, not spares of the same robot that was finished in the six weeks.

[meg]

Originally Posted by Keefe2471

Also, what about open bag time? Is there any limit on what goes on and comes off the robot during that time?

For open bag time for districts: If the parts are COTS, no limit. If they are not but were manufactured during the open bag time, then they can go on. If they were manufactured before the open bag time, they count towards the 30 lbs withholding allowance on an honors system to verify.

[Europa]

Originally Posted by Libby K

From how I think I understand your question, yes - but remember if you don't bag it at the end of your first event, and it's fabricated - make sure it is in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE for your next event's load-in if you want it back.

We bagged with 50lbs or so of ballast (machined for bolt holes & therefore not COTS steel), knowing we won't use it all... but can't bring it as WITHHOLDING. It'll all go back in the bag when we lock up again after unbag time & events, unless Frank surprises us all with a change to the bagging rules after this discussion. We want the ability to pop the individual plates in and out as we add/remove mechanisms, so in the bag they went.

But for example, can we take a fabricated part off your bagged robot on a Thursday of a regional and take them back to your workshop on Thursday without the intent to re-bag them after the regional?

[Keefe2471]

Originally Posted by meg

For open bag time for districts: If the parts are COTS, no limit. If they are not but were manufactured during the open bag time, then they can go on. If they were manufactured before the open bag time, they count towards the 30 lbs withholding allowance on an honors system to verify.

Thanks

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by marshall

Well we might need 8 robots in that case...

Register a team in a north region and a team in a south region and win both half championships!

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Europa

But for example, can we take a fabricated part off your bagged robot on a Thursday of a regional and take them back to your workshop on Thursday without the intent to re-bag them after the regional?

Not if you intend to bring them back into the regional's venue that weekend.

[Europa]

Originally Posted by Libby K

Not if you intend to bring them back into the regional's venue that weekend.

It is not our intent to bring those parts back into the regional! Thank you for the help!