Team Update 14 (2016)

[mathking]

Originally Posted by meg

I think it depends on what you want to teach the students. What if the engineers at Google had decided that because cars are vehicles driven by people, they couldn't start to automate that process.

What if the Wright brothers had listened to the whole world telling them that it was impossible to fly? Where would this world be if all the engineers and inventors just accepted what is and what has been assumed? Cars? Space exploration? Computers?

I don't disagree with this but I don't think it is the right analogy. If the self-driving car engineers had come up with a self driving jet pack it would be amazing and cool and not what they were asked to do. I am all for trying to find crazy ways to play the game and coming up with really innovative mechanisms and designs that are fantastic and effective. And honestly I don't think a team that put two robots in the bag with the intent of one being spare parts for the other did anything wrong at all. It's pretty brilliant, particularly for a game as rugged as this one is likely to be.

In this situation, and in pretty much every situation where we start a discussion like this about what is the right way to do things or what is fair in FRC, I think about what makes the competition fun and exciting for the most people. The mission of the organization (in regards to FRC) is to change the culture by providing a competition that makes STEM exciting and fun for high school students. So while I do think FIRST is not necessarily setting out to make things "fair" they have pretty solid reason to keep things "fair enough" that people (kids and mentors) stay interested.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

We completely destroyed our bagged robot. it was down to an electronics panel, and two drive rails. The rest we built between week 1 and week 2 and at the event.

So the rest of your robot weighed about 30lbs?

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by dodar

So the rest of your robot weighed about 30lbs?

Anything they built at the event didn't count in the weight allowance.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe

Anything they built at the event didn't count in the weight allowance.

2 drive rails + electronics panel weighs what maybe 30lbs + 30lbs from withholding, so that means they build about 50-60lbs at an event?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Team 1815, 3rd overall pick at GTR in 2010.

tyvm for adding the emoji

Since I wasn't at that event and I assume you were, could you tell us if 1815 came to the event with the deflector in their crate or not?

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

And if a top level team had full access to their robot for 4-5 weeks before championships...? I'm sure people could do a decent copy.

This is possible, but no one did. They just made variations to fit there existing robot. It wasn't like can grabbers or mini bots ramps, it required a full design change.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by dodar

2 drive rails + electronics panel weighs what maybe 30lbs + 30lbs from withholding, so that means they build about 50-60lbs at an event?

Definitely possible. I watched 836 bring in a ton of raw materials to Chesapeake last year and completely rebuild their robot. They practiced building it at home so they knew exactly what they needed to do.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

This is possible, but no one did. They just made variations to fit there existing robot. It wasn't like can grabbers or mini bots ramps, it required a full design change.

I believe you are missing the point. With a bag day, yes it was hard to do. Without a bag day it becomes all to feasible.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

I believe you are missing the point. With a bag day, yes it was hard to do. Without a bag day it becomes all to feasible.

Paynes initial comment was with "Bag Time".

[dodar]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

I believe you are missing the point. With a bag day, yes it was hard to do. Without a bag day it becomes all to feasible.

Why dont you just drop the "feasible" thing and say what you are wanting to. You are hiding "they will do it" behind the word feasible.

Just because they can, doesnt mean they will. Nor could most.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

I believe you are missing the point. With a bag day, yes it was hard to do. Without a bag day it becomes all to feasible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWHw...ature=youtu.be

Here's 118's robot. Show me your design for a similar version of what they did that is equally as effective if not more effective than their solution. You have four weeks.

[s_forbes]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

It seems like a clear wording to me... and doesn't change the original intent of the rule. I'm not sure what we're supposed to be upset about in this thread.

Nevermind, I got it now.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by dodar

2 drive rails + electronics panel weighs what maybe 30lbs + 30lbs from withholding, so that means they build about 50-60lbs at an event?

30lbs of fabricated parts is allowed to be brought in, most of the robot is COTS now a days. Motors, gearboxes, pneumatics, etc. We used some pieces from the previous "robot" but mostly just as raw material because it was powder coated. The total robot weight was about 90lbs last year.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by dodar

Why dont you just drop the "feasible" thing and say what you are wanting to. You are hiding "they will do it" behind the word feasible.

Just because they can, doesnt mean they will. Nor could most.

You are absolutely right. But it only takes a couple successful copies to start changing FIRST's culture from a make our own design decisions to, lets just copy the robot. That shift has already started to happen. For example:

Minibots/233's deployment 2011
Stingers 2012
10 point hangers 2013
Goalie poles/33's hulahoop 2014
Cangrabbers/intakes 2015

You are completely entitled to your opinion, I just feel differently.

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWHw...ature=youtu.be

Here's 118's robot. Show me your design for a similar version of what they did that is equally as effective if not more effective than their solution. You have four weeks.

My answer to you is: (feel free to sub out 1114 for any xxxx team you feel like)

Also, since this isn't legal for an FRC game, I don't forsee any team taking you up on this offer to copy 118 (or any robot), spending plenty of manhours and thousands of dollars for an illegal robot just to prove you wrong.

Originally Posted by BrennanB

Of course, it won't be as competitive as the original robot, eg, 1114 will likely always be better than any copy that anyone could make.

[Doug G]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Can we just get rid of bag day and withholding allowances already?

DITTO!!

Sorry to derail this... but I can't help myself

I didn't used to be in favor of this, but these past two seasons have really made me re-think my position. I'm tired of raising money for VEX, AndyMark, and McMaster. Don't get me wrong, I love these vendors but the amount of extra parts we purchase to build multiple robots and to also have spare parts is getting ridiculous. This money could be used to help pay for student travel to competition, tools, etc... But we do it to stay competitive and it extends our build season.

For the first time this year, we planned on developing a "scaling" system post bag n tag. We figure after the first couple weeks of competition, we will be able to better determine which method is easiest, lightest, and reliable. So the "bag n tag" restriction isn't really a restriction since you have withholding allowance.

Bag-n-tag is keeping underfunded teams from being competitive. My team is practicing at a location setup by another team that doesn't have resources to build second bot. They unlock the facility for us and watch us practice, which is incredibly gracious of them, but I feel bad for them... they need to practice too!

Get rid of "bag & tag" / "stop build day"... it has lost the significance it used to have.