Real week 1 update for you.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by dragonglave

I assume you were volunteering at the northern lights regional, as there actually a qualifications breach at Lake Superior. It was qualifications round 32 with teams 359, 2823, and 2538. There's thoughts that it may be the first qualifications capture in the world and even if it wasn't it was really awesome to see and have our team be part of

towards the end of the quals at West Valley this morning 4980 started to really show off their capturing skills,scaling a couple times.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by BotDesigner

What is the extra height on the hanging rung?

Its further out from castle wall than team version. Lots of room behind it.

[EricH]

I'll weigh in real fast--the refs would tend to signal the result of a crossing attempt pretty quickly. Either the lights would go out, or a "cut" motion would be signaled. Gotta be fully clear on the NZ side beforehand AND on the Courtyard side afterwards.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricH

I'll weigh in real fast--the refs would tend to signal the result of a crossing attempt pretty quickly. Either the lights would go out, or a "cut" motion would be signaled. Gotta be fully clear on the NZ side beforehand AND on the Courtyard side afterwards.

They missed ours twice in early matches and as I said it got better as time went on. We fully cleared on both ends. I saw it with my own eyes.

Its a bit frustrating not getting a RP or two one day 1... I understand the difficulty but from a team perspective the rank matters for stuff you did especially for overnight rankings. It did not matter in long run for us (we assembled a great alliance so no harm or foul) but it is something refs need to be aware of , I wish there was quick instant replay ability as I have a feeling this will creep up again since its human scored and not sensors. They should allow teams to provide video and dispute it up to the end of the days matches IMO.

[Boydean]

Originally Posted by Boltman

2. There will "likely" be missed defensive crossings , we had to run over one defense eight times to destroy it (its game 1 for officiating crew too) no hard feelings, but be aware the defense crossings are scored by eyesight. This did affect our ranking that 'should" be higher in terms of RP for breaching. Still happy where we are. We know we did it and in the big scheme probably won't matter.

Counting the crossings as a referee is a lot harder than it appears. It's very easy to get tunnel vision on one robot trying to cross, and missing others who are crossing. It takes practice as a referee to get used to it – it should get better further into the event.

Also, be careful when using the LEDs under the outer works as a reference. At certain angles from the driver stations the LEDs will appear to be on when they aren't (this is also true for some referees). If you want to know for sure if you got the crossing quickly check the screen.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Boydean

Counting the crossings as a referee is a lot harder than it appears. It's very easy to get tunnel vision on one robot trying to cross, and missing others who are crossing. It takes practice as a referee to get used to it – it should get better further into the event.

Also, be careful when using the LEDs under the outer works as a reference. At certain angles from the driver stations the LEDs will appear to be on when they aren't (this is also true for some referees). If you want to know for sure if you got the crossing quickly check the screen.

Well that's unfortunate for drive teams they cannot see the screen in the middle of their matches pretty sure all are using field indicators to decide what to cross. The biggest issue I see is on ranking points... those "challenges" should be allowed to be reviewed by video as it means likely a 3-6 place swing (of three or more teams) on end of day 1 ranks. For teams really trying and earning crossings and breaches trying to be a captain that makes it much harder with a few games left in day 2... it can be the difference of captain or being the other pick or even not selected. Many scouts only go by stats and stats for them are important.

I suspect its a week 1 day 1 thing and as the season goes on it will improve as refs become more aware of it. No hard feelings at all just trying to put the issue out there for future events ...like next week in central valley

[TJP123]

I don't have enough vacation time for them to start allowing video replay.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by TJP123

I don't have enough vacation time for them to start allowing video replay.

Neither do I ..but sometimes delay is good when you need to repair the bot. We had an hour to do a massive major repair to our shooter shaft in eliminations it was awesome to have extra time...but....

In regards to not credited RP....

It would not have to be during matches just in between as time allows before end of the day. Not every match should be reviewed just those that affect extra ranking points (Captures/Breaches) of tree or more teams. Since RP are the highest order sort they should be accurate. A couple minutes for an official to review sometime during the day does not seem to be a burden and can change the rank of multiple teams.

I could only see a handful of matches that would need "by end of day 1 video review" by a lone official
This would mainly be a day 1 thing to tidy up the RP's which this year are huge and mainly on breaches since those are human scored.

I can see this becoming and issue in upcoming weeks a team request for video review on RP no-calls would make sense.

That would be better than "wasting time" challenging during a match and keep matches flowing. As of now teams may complain during the match and the net result is wasted time and really no change will occur anyhow as its a human judgement call. No ref on the field is going to say "yea I missed that".

This could be handled during the day with a simple video review with visual evidence and perhaps the "missing" RP added back in thus corrected and this offline adjustment would speed up match cycle times.

I'm just putting a spotlight on this because its the end of week 1 and most of FRC has many games to play in next five weeks. Better to come up with a solution now than have this become an issue down the road and possibly even in the Championships.

Remember a single not-scored RP is at least a 3-5 rank swing down..for three or more teams at end of day 1. That's a lot to make up with 2 games left day 2. It can make the difference on a multiple teams even being selected and certainly affects who the captains are.

Every outer works has ten possible 5-point scoring plays (40 points to earn a RP) so upon "video review" each missed valid crossing credit should be added to the initial human scoring and then determined if it met the 40 point breach threshold by adding in those missed crosses , then that RP should be adjusted for all three teams involved by end of day 1. So we have a proper ranking for all teams.

If teams have to repeatedly "waste time " by crossing a lighted defense four or six times to get credit they should be compensated for that as there is only 2:30 in the game and having to do multiple crossings of same defense just to get the lights to go out wastes time the team could be moving on to other scoring or defensive possibilities.

I see no down side to a handful of reviews when it is determined ahead of time to convincingly lead to a missed earned RP issue especially on the last defense to be destroyed.

Trying to help all teams with this spotlighting of an issue from week 1 and to improve game flow as well. Hope this helps everyone or at least brings the issue to the minds of refs as we go forward. I see my suggestion as being doable, efficient and improves ranking accuracy.

The very fact we beat the #1 alliance in two straight QF games decisively as #8 (first time I recall that ever happening since I've been if FRC) shows how initial ranks were skewed down "by mistake" for us and several others (and skewed up for the rest).

In a way its not fair for any elimination alliance selector to select based on RP that may not indicate actual strength of teams..

Teams should not be told its "too late" to change the RP score..we were not the only ones lodging a challenge. Happened twice for us.

I know FRC officials read my posts here so please consider this change for improving flows in matches by avoiding on field "complaints/challenges" and by getting teams the RP's they earned in game play.

Kids should be taught as part of FRC that errors can get corrected with indisputable evidence.

[nedwards28]

Originally Posted by MikLast

towards the end of the quals at West Valley this morning 4980 started to really show off their capturing skills,scaling a couple times.

This is one of our scales yesterday. One such scale helped our alliance to achieve 130 points during quarterfinals.

And yes, I agree that auto is going to be necessary this year to stay high in rankings. That's just too many points available and shooting is dang hard without vision processing.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by nedwards28

This is one of our scales yesterday. One such scale helped our alliance to achieve 130 points during quarterfinals.

And yes, I agree that auto is going to be necessary this year to stay high in rankings. That's just too many points available and shooting is dang hard without vision processing.

A scale is worth TWO high goals we plan to use it early and often in CV now that we worked out the kinks.

[EricH]

Just a thought: My standard response to any and all "we need video replay" posts is as follows.

1) FIRST does not allow any referees to view video replays.
2) Technical challenge is huge here. There are threads about this.
3) Feel free to ref an event and see just how hard we have it as it is.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by EricH

Just a thought: My standard response to any and all "we need video replay" posts is as follows.

1) FIRST does not allow any referees to view video replays.
2) Technical challenge is huge here. There are threads about this.
3) Feel free to ref an event and see just how hard we have it as it is.

I don't doubt its hard and I thank the entire ref team in San Diego. If First does not allow it then that's it. I don't see a solution to the skewed ranking if it occurs. We'll just do the same procedure of asking for a review during each match where it occurs.

We are all human and there is a lot going on...of course I'm laser focused on our bot during a match so I see its every move , refs need to keep track of six on a fairly complex field.

[XaulZan11]

One solution to missed points would be to design a game where points are totaled at the end of the match. This way, refs can spend the match watching only for fouls.

I think FIRST needs a fundamental change in how it refs these games. I just do not think it is possible for them to watch for everything this year. It almost seems like the GDC designs some great game without thinking this through and then passes it off to the refs and say "make this work. thanks!".

Does anyone know if FIRST reviews the accuracy of their refs similar to what the NFL does? I'd be curious to see the accuracy percentage across years.

[indieFan]

I'm surprised FIRST didn't use scales in combination with sensors to determine when a crossing was completed or not. Yes, it would add to the cost of the field and greatly complicate the field staff's lives during set-up and maintenance, but it would help resolve some of these issues.

There have been years when the method of scoring has switched (from mechanical to human, anyone know if it went the other way?) due to issues.

Can any of the people at the events tell us how many Refs are watching the field? Is one Ref responsible for watching all 5 defenses on a side? If so, would it be plausible to get a two more Refs for future events to split the load up? (Yes, I realize it's difficult to get enough volunteers in the first place.)

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by indieFan

I'm surprised FIRST didn't use scales in combination with sensors to determine when a crossing was completed or not. Yes, it would add to the cost of the field and greatly complicate the field staff's lives during set-up and maintenance, but it would help resolve some of these issues.

There have been years when the method of scoring has switched (from mechanical to human, anyone know if it went the other way?) due to issues.

Can any of the people at the events tell us how many Refs are watching the field? Is one Ref responsible for watching all 5 defenses on a side? If so, would it be plausible to get a two more Refs for future events to split the load up? (Yes, I realize it's difficult to get enough volunteers in the first place.)

How can sensors determine if a robot started in the neutral zone without touching the defense and ended in the courtyard without touching the defense? How does the sensor know what alliance the robot is from?

I am currently assigned as a ref assistant for this upcoming week. Maybe I will be looking at the crossings. I suggest you volunteer if you think the process can be improved.