Scoring/game issues

[nedwards28]

I know this has been mentioned in earlier posts however, I am frustrated to learn this morning that our team lost one of our qualification matches because our scale points were given to the opposing alliance. How that mistake could happen is crazy as we were the only team at our even to even attempt a scale. Shame on us for not catching the point mishap but, we were so stinking excited to scale again that we didn't catch this until early this morning. We knew there were a lot of scoring issues going on all day long and weren't sure if it was due to the field system or lack of training by the referees. I definitely feel like this game this year is pretty complicated for a referee but, shoot! That was a 30 point swing and honestly didn't think it was possible to screw up the scale points as those are added after the match and well, no one else was even trying.

How do your teams handle the point issues? Are we incorrectly understanding that we cannot question points after a match? Or was that just about fouls? I am thinking that we need to appoint a couple of students that just focus on points and make sure we get the points we deserve so we don't walk away missing some well deserved points or match wins. Then if something comes up, we can question right away in an appropriate manner. I know a lot of your teams are more established and better organized than we are so, we are appreciative of any insight you can give.

[bstew]

See section 5.5.3 Referee Interaction. T19 states:

If a DRIVE TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that DRIVE TEAM should address the Head REFEREE after the ARENA Reset Signal (e.g. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A DRIVE TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head REFEREE by standing in the corresponding Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor near each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head REFEREE may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.

[Boltman]

We lost 2 breach RP... first time we left the field then asked "too late"
Second time we asked they denied it even though it was obvious from the stands

I sent a message to FRC to try to get video replay decision of any RP challenges before end of day 1 to help correct rankings ...it really messed up the ranking scale in San Diego we were way lower ranked than we should have been..but as consolation we beat #1 in two games decisively #8 alliance was captain was thrilled to have us available at their pick and we got another great bot the pick after..so it all worked out. To the detriment of alliance 1

[alicen]

Are you sure that the scale points were assigned incorrectly? Because the way you're describing it is kind of impossible.

The refs that score scales happen immediately after the end of the match, but the ones that score red side don't even look at or score blue side, and vice versa.

I can't say for sure what happened, but I don't think they awarded your scale to another team without some very serious mistakes. It would involve a ref walking to the other end of the field to put in your scale on a different ref panel, then have that scale be corroborated by the other ref on that end of the field saying "yup, that scale happened"

[nedwards28]

Originally Posted by alicen

Are you sure that the scale points were assigned incorrectly? Because the way you're describing it is kind of impossible.

The refs that score scales happen immediately after the end of the match, but the ones that score red side don't even look at or score blue side, and vice versa.

I can't say for sure what happened, but I don't think they awarded your scale to another team without some very serious mistakes. It would involve a ref walking to the other end of the field to put in your scale on a different ref panel, then have that scale be corroborated by the other ref on that end of the field saying "yup, that scale happened"

I agree, it feels really crazy! Are scores reported accurately on The Blue Alliance? I thought those were accurate scores. This is where I found the error. We are 4980.
https://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016waspo_qm45

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by alicen

Are you sure that the scale points were assigned incorrectly? Because the way you're describing it is kind of impossible.

The refs that score scales happen immediately after the end of the match, but the ones that score red side don't even look at or score blue side, and vice versa.

I can't say for sure what happened, but I don't think they awarded your scale to another team without some very serious mistakes. It would involve a ref walking to the other end of the field to put in your scale on a different ref panel, then have that scale be corroborated by the other ref on that end of the field saying "yup, that scale happened"

While 4980 was not successful in this match, they were the only ones scaling at west valley, as the match video for this match confirms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7j...QJu4n&index=45 (at least this one was posted, many from here are mislabeled or outright missing.) Its fairly obvious they were the only ones scaling that match, and thus the Blue alliance should not of gotten the scaling points.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by MikLast

While 4980 was not successful in this match, they were the only ones scaling at west valley, as the match video for this match confirms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7j...QJu4n&index=45 (at least this one was posted, many from here are mislabeled or outright missing.) Its fairly obvious they were the only ones scaling that match, and thus the Blue alliance should not of gotten the scaling points.

Are you sure no foul was called because those can add scaling points to other alliance.

[Navid Shafa]

Another big issue this week:

Teams clearly crossing defenses 5 or 6 times, before the defense is scored as damaged...

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Are you sure no foul was called because those can add scaling points to other alliance.

Wouldnt fouls be called as fouls and not a scale?
https://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016waspo_qm45

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

Another big issue this week:

Teams clearly crossing defenses 5 or 6 times, before the defense is scored as damaged...

Another issue is defenses being counted as damaged incorrectly, as in match 1 for the same event (watch 4513's bot and the low bar during the beginning of teleop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iik...hQJu4n&index=1) At least this match was replayed the next day.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Are you sure no foul was called because those can add scaling points to other alliance.

G28, for those that need a reference.

G17 may also apply if someone's jumping the gun.


The combination of those two could easily generate that result.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

Another big issue this week:

Teams clearly crossing defenses 5 or 6 times, before the defense is scored as damaged...

Yup tell me about it cost us 2 RP by end of day 1, I wish there were sensors lots going on its hard on refs but affects ranking we beat alliance #1 2-0 because #8 alliance was loaded with quality bots ..that should not happen if ranking is not skewed by missed RP's which put us about 6 places back from where we should have been ranked.

I get where First is coming from but this explains in part why lower alliances are doing really good this year . They ARE good and using the "extra time not wasted on crossing defenses again and again" instead on elimination alliances scoring. Not very fair to #1 and #2 alliances if stronger top 10ish bots are artificially ranked lower.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by MikLast

Another issue is defenses being counted as damaged incorrectly, as in match 1 for the same event (watch 4513's bot and the low bar during the beginning of teleop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Iik...hQJu4n&index=1) At least this match was replayed the next day.

It got counted, but not until the timer reached 110 seconds left.

[alicen]

Originally Posted by nedwards28

I agree, it feels really crazy! Are scores reported accurately on The Blue Alliance? I thought those were accurate scores. This is where I found the error. We are 4980.
https://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016waspo_qm45

I can't really speak for the accuracy of TBA scores or where the blue alliance scale points came from, etc

The only thing I really can say is that it's highly unlikely that they counted your scale for blue instead.

After watching the video of the match, your robot (4980) was not actually high enough to score a scale. You have to have ALL of your robot lifted above the top of the opening for the low goal

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by MrBasse

It got counted, but not until the timer reached 110 seconds left.

Watch around the 90 second mark. That should not of counted.

[nedwards28]

Originally Posted by EricH

G28, for those that need a reference.

G17 may also apply if someone's jumping the gun.


The combination of those two could easily generate that result.

So, here is the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7joyGrT8g

MikLast is right. We didn't make it up high enough for the scale. And, while the video doesn't show our third player, the robot is clearly in their own courtyard at the end of the match near an opposing robot. I'm guessing they were playing defense well into the last 20 seconds and cost us that 15 points. This is really good to know as it's a HUGE penalty and would explain why there are scaling points all over the place even though no one else is scaling. It would be nice to have it labeled as a penalty instead of a scale. That would help us trying to figure out the scoring stuff.

The final score for them gives them a scale but no challenge. So, I don't know what robot was hit but, it would seem like the red bot had to hit the blue one on the battery for red to not pick up 20 points total instead of the just the 15.

I appreciate the help in this!