Boulder Starvation

[GarrettF2395]

Has anyone seen a strategy (preferably in the elims) where an alliance purposefully attempted to keep boulders out of the middle of the field?

I've been thinking about game strategies and comparing things to past gameplay while prepping for our regional this weekend. Something I've noticed is that the secret passage reminds me a lot of the human player station safe zone from 2011. I'm sure others have realized this also.

I remember an example of this strategy from 2011 at silicon valley. 1323, 604, and 1868 almost beat the power house 254 alliance by starving them of inner tubes. http://www.thebluealliance.com/event/2011sj
You can see that the finals scoring is much lower in the final rounds than the other elims.
I know it's only week one, but there's already been a ton of gameplay. Just thought I'd ask the community.

[Procolsaurus]

I watched several times where balls simply accumulated at the end of the secret passage. The first couple balls just stay there by chance, or maybe having a robot push them there, then the new balls being introduced to the field roll into the ball blockage and stay there. At one regional I saw a ball pile with 10 balls, that is over half of the balls in the game.
It is then annoying to grab those balls now since you have to be careful about grabbing two, to avoid penalties, while not driving on top of the balls.

Edit- added image

[Boltman]

Its a valid strategy as most hybrid-boulder bots will have longer cycle times than a dedicated starving bot.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Boltman

Its a valid strategy as most hybrid-boulder bots will have longer cycle times than a dedicated starving bot.

What is a "hybrid-boulder bot"?

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by BrennanB

What is a "hybrid-boulder bot"?

What I call a decent crosser and HG/LG shooter so there cycle times are lower as they can cross most defenses.... I just coined that term..basically mid level captain types as breachers usually will rank higher in quals

I differentiate those that only can cross one or two defenses...from those that can pretty much breach and shoot

The types that beat us (with our shooter malfunction) in SD and eventually won it.

[Chris is me]

If you're not doing this, what game are you playing? This is a much more effective form of defense than a lot of the physical defense you can do this year, and ball control is absolutely critical to winning in elims and trying to prevent captures at all costs. Human players need to bowl well and time the bowls appropriately or you're just giving your opponents points.

[Rypsnort]

Are you allowed to shoot a ball over the outer works and do some thing along the lines of what 16 did in 2012 and just feed your own team boulders and starve the other alliance?

[thehotsauceman]

No, you can't shoot a boulder unless you're in your opponent's courtyard, though i like the reference to 2012.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Procolsaurus

I watched several times where balls simply accumulated at the end of the secret passage. The first couple balls just stay there by chance, or maybe having a robot push them there, then the new balls being introduced to the field roll into the ball blockage and stay there. At one regional I saw a ball pile with 10 balls, that is over half of the balls in the game.
It is then annoying to grab those balls now since you have to be careful about grabbing two, to avoid penalties, while not driving on top of the balls.

I think stockpiling boulders in the secret passage is a risky form of boulder control. If you bring boulders to your own secret passage, you would have to dedicate a full time defender to protecting the boulders in the passage, so a HG scorer can't swoop in and have quick access to boulders right next to your tower.

If you dump a lot of boulders into your opponent's secret passage, the opposing alliance has much more access to those boulders due to being able to cross from the neutral zone to the secret passage and back.

I think it's possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some strategies aimed at this, especially later in the season, but I think it is very risky.

[Procolsaurus]

Originally Posted by Rypsnort

do some thing along the lines of what 16 did in 2012

G40 A ROBOT may not cause a BOULDER to move from the NEUTRAL ZONE into the opponent’s
COURTYARD unless:
A. the ROBOT contacts the BOULDER within OUTER WORKS, and
B. the ROBOT completes its CROSSING (e.g. doesn’t completely back out of the OUTER
WORKS into the NEUTRAL ZONE)
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER

A 16 style strategy will be a little slower than in 2012 since you will have to complete a crossing each time, in 2012 team 16 would only have their intake over the bump before dropping the balls.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

I think stockpiling boulders in the secret passage is a risky form of boulder control. If you bring boulders to your own secret passage, you would have to dedicate a full time defender to protecting the boulders in the passage, so a HG scorer can't swoop in and have quick access to boulders right next to your tower.

If you dump a lot of boulders into your opponent's secret passage, the opposing alliance has much more access to those boulders due to being able to cross from the neutral zone to the secret passage and back.

I think it's possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some strategies aimed at this, especially later in the season, but I think it is very risky.

I haven't tested any of these ideas yet, but if you accumulated balls at the end of your secret passage, and then assigned your third partner to stay near them to prevent your opponents from using your secret passage, it could theoretically slow down both your opponent's top scoring machines while only occupying your third robot.

(Your opponents can't cross from the neutral zone to your secret passage, that incurs penalties)

I'm very curious to see how these strategies shape up in the coming weeks, rather than in my theoretical math.

[Boltman]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

I haven't tested any of these ideas yet, but if you accumulated balls at the end of your secret passage, and then assigned your third partner to stay near them to prevent your opponents from using your secret passage, it could theoretically slow down both your opponent's top scoring machines while only occupying your third robot.

(Your opponents can't cross from the neutral zone to your secret passage, that incurs penalties)

I'm very curious to see how these strategies shape up in the coming weeks, rather than in my theoretical math.

I think you may violate multiple rules ...impeding game play and forcing a team to foul..its risky to rely on that strategy.

What makes more sense is "starve and score" win/win

Not starve and keep boulders away from your scoring area

[g_sawchuk]

Originally Posted by Boltman

I think you may violate multiple rules ...impeding game play and forcing a team to foul..its risky to rely on that strategy.

What makes more sense is "starve and score" win/win

Not starve and keep boulders away from your scoring area

It would not be considered impeding the flow of the match, as exemplified by G25. Isolating boulders in your own SECRET PASSAGE is not deemed impeding the flow of the match.

G25 A ROBOT may not attempt to stop or impede the flow of the MATCH in any of the following ways:
A. intentionally tipping over
B. coordinating a blockade of the FIELD with ALLIANCE members
C. blocking GOAL(S) while in contact with its own BATTER using anything outside its
FRAME PERIMETER except its BUMPERS
D. blocking more than one of the opponent’s HUMAN PLAYER STATION openings while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE
E. isolating BOULDERS in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from opponents while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

I haven't tested any of these ideas yet, but if you accumulated balls at the end of your secret passage, and then assigned your third partner to stay near them to prevent your opponents from using your secret passage, it could theoretically slow down both your opponent's top scoring machines while only occupying your third robot.

(Your opponents can't cross from the neutral zone to your secret passage, that incurs penalties)

I'm very curious to see how these strategies shape up in the coming weeks, rather than in my theoretical math.

This is a potentially great strategy for a strong #1 or #2 alliance at a strong event (think 1114 and 2056), but more often than you might expect you'll need three robots playing at least some offense to get both your breach and capture in the elims. Your third robot comes into play more than you think.

[Edxu]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

I haven't tested any of these ideas yet, but if you accumulated balls at the end of your secret passage, and then assigned your third partner to stay near them to prevent your opponents from using your secret passage, it could theoretically slow down both your opponent's top scoring machines while only occupying your third robot.

(Your opponents can't cross from the neutral zone to your secret passage, that incurs penalties)

I'm very curious to see how these strategies shape up in the coming weeks, rather than in my theoretical math.

I would argue that this violates G38's definition of HERDING or TRAPPING, as you're creating a group of boulders in the secret passage with the intention of putting a robot there to guard them.