MAR Competitions

[Starwarsguy2]

The judges are definitely doing their best with a complicated game with many moving parts. I remember when I reffed an FLL competition and was wracked with fear that I made a bad call. But if I did, the kids calmly asked me about it and I explained the call. They were highly understanding and always showed respect and thanks to me and the other volunteers. Please remember back to FLL in these situations (if you did it) and act accordingly. Considering that that was just FLL, I am amazed by the refs of this years FRC game who have to deal with a much bigger game and more complaints.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Starwarsguy2

The judges are definitely doing their best with a complicated game with many moving parts. I remember when I reffed an FLL competition and was wracked with fear that I made a bad call. But if I did, the kids calmly asked me about it and I explained the call. They were highly understanding and always showed respect and thanks to me and the other volunteers. Please remember back to FLL in these situations (if you did it) and act accordingly. Considering that that was just FLL, I am amazed by the refs of this years FRC game who have to deal with a much bigger game and more complaints.

REFS! REFS WEAR ZEBRA SHIRT.

Judges wear blue.


Come on people, it's not hard... and it hasn't changed.

[Hoover]

An after thought ... The umpire's bad call always was a sort of wild card of the game... up until instant replay started which in a way sort of ruined the game. (just my opinion). No one on the winning team in baseball would contest the bad call. In "the scenes we'd like to see department", someone on CD starts a thread titled "MAR sux because a bad call made us win".

Libby,

I was watching Mt Olive from home via Youtube. It was quite obvious when crossings were being missed. I could almost keep up with both sides at the same time. Someone looking at the live feed down on the floor might be able to help but I don't know if it is allowed.

[Ken Best]

"Why are the officials in the MAR district so bad at their jobs?"
How would you go about making this statement? As with any game, there are decisions made that require quick and accurate thinking. A week one event will obviously have more issues than a week 5 event. Did you watch all of the matches for all events this weekend and then review and review again. knowing every rule, and EVERY FMS and FTA RESPONSE. At one time or another every team has had a unwarranted benefit in a match. As far as RI, the initial inspection is just that. As a robot is viewed and progresses thru the event, different configurations become apparent that may violate the rules. RI's consistently address teams from the start to the end of the event. Every match,every robot and every pit is respectfully monitored so the rules are applied correctly. Things come up that may not have during the teams previous match, it's an ongoing situation. Teams just aren't given the green light once the initial inspection is done.Sometimes violations are noted that require items to be dismantled. It;s unfortunate but the game manual and various resources are in place for the team to avoid these situations.

And why do the volunteers think they're so much better than everyone?
They don't. The Mt.Olive event requires over 120 volunteers that dedicate over 5000 hours in four days. Countless hours are put in from reading and understanding the game manual, to picking up the last peice of gym protector after the field is packed in the pods. Until you do this it all seems like magic to a 9-12 grade person. As one FMS person told me he used to think WOW when entering an event when in HS, now he understands the behind the scenes requirement. Every volunteer at MT Olive went way beyond the norm so that every person there could have a great experience.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Hoover

In "the scenes we'd like to see department", someone on CD starts a thread titled "MAR sux because a bad call made us win".

LOVE to see that one. Anybody says that one, my opinion is that there ought to be space for ya at either DCMP or CMP, whichever one you go to next... regardless of whether you'd have won or lost without that (bad) call going in your favor.

There was something like that at CMP 'bout 3 years ago, or so I hear, where one alliance tried to talk the head ref out of red-carding the other alliance...

[jds2001]

I've been debating whether to respond to this, but I'm going to make one response and that's it.

I was a ref at Mt. Olive. This game is HARD, the sightlines are bad, and we're human. I'm also of the opinion that video replay ruined baseball, and if you think professional umpires get it right all the time, I've got news for you.

However, what made my weekend was when a student came up to me, and said "thanks for the hand signals on the sally port, that really helped". Made my day that someone appreciated what I was doing, knows how hard it is (no video replay is going to be able to get the multiple angles that you have to look to tell a valid crossing), and took the time to tell me so.

What really gets me down is when someone starts a thread like this, with apparently zero knowledge about how it's done, and then expects us to be perfect. We're all human, we make mistakes. However, since the rules do not allow us to look at video (and I would not be in favor of a change to this), we have to accept the mistakes, as Galarraga graciously did. Nobody's perfect.

[techhelpbb]

One thing I love about automation and sensors:
They are without emotion and beyond practiced emotional assault.

Seriously we had sensors under mid-field elements in the past. I think all the people very troubled by these errors or to the way the referees get treated as a result should pony up

I have got at least $250 to take the human out of this crossing scoring. Can go higher for a reusable solution.

I want to see referees like Jon come back next year and people, do not fool yourselves, referees have sworn this job off in the past because of the practiced emotional backlash.

FIRST/MAR you know how to find me to collect your bounty for the sensors.

The issue I see with more volunteers is even if there are referees for the quadrants and the robots (12 referees total) one can still miss things and even if they do not you will have differences of opinion between those watching a robot and those watching the quadrant. The people watching the robots would have to move and then you have mobile wireless terminals and all those issues.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

One thing I love about automation and sensors:
They are without emotion and beyond practiced emotional assault.

Seriously we had sensors under mid-field elements in the past. I think all the people very troubled by these errors or to the way the referees get treated as a result should pony up

I have got at least $250 to take the human out of this crossing scoring. Can go higher for a reusable solution.

I want to see referees like Jon come back next year and people, do not fool yourselves, referees have sworn this job off in the past because of the practiced emotional backlash.

FIRST/MAR you know how to find me to collect your bounty for the sensors.

The issue I see with more volunteers is even if there are referees for the quadrants and the robots (12 referees total) one can still miss things and even if they do not you will have differences of opinion between those watching a robot and those watching the quadrant. The people watching the robots would have to move and then you have mobile wireless terminals and all those issues.

Stab in the dark:

There might be enough ferrous crap on an FRC robot (mostly motors) that you could detect crossing by change in magnetic field inducing current in a wire. Wire coils under each defense ramp (in and out) and watch transitions.

Better solution would be some sort of RFID chip on robot (passive) with readers under the ramps to ensure it's one bot doing the crossing. Could possibly do this with the existing radio infrastructure but that's beyond my skill set to quickly figure out.


Or, dumb question: 6 refs, 6 bots... one ref per bot. Like most teams scouting do.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Stab in the dark:

There might be enough ferrous crap on an FRC robot (mostly motors) that you could detect crossing by change in magnetic field inducing current in a wire. Wire coils under each defense ramp (in and out) and watch transitions.

Better solution would be some sort of RFID chip on robot (passive) with readers under the ramps to ensure it's one bot doing the crossing. Could possibly do this with the existing radio infrastructure but that's beyond my skill set to quickly figure out.


Or, dumb question: 6 refs, 6 bots... one ref per bot. Like most teams scouting do.

To be clear we need FIRST to execute it.
I think it can be done technically, but will FIRST go along and do it?
I have no reasonable expectation I can control how FIRST decides to do it (or even if).
If this is a money thing, and surely it is in part a money thing, let's figure out how much cause that interested parties can work out.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

To be clear we need FIRST to execute it.
I think it can be done technically, but will FIRST go along and do it?
I have no reasonable expectation I can control how FIRST decides to do it (or even if).
If this is a money thing, and surely it is in part a money thing, let's figure out how much cause that interested parties can work out.

I know, but step 1 is kinda getting a solution that should work. I don't have the knowledge required to do this on my own, all I can really do is spitball ideas.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by jds2001

I've been debating whether to respond to this, but I'm going to make one response and that's it.

I was a ref at Mt. Olive. This game is HARD, the sightlines are bad, and we're human.

[snip]

What really gets me down is when someone starts a thread like this, with apparently zero knowledge about how it's done, and then expects us to be perfect. We're all human, we make mistakes. However, since the rules do not allow us to look at video (and I would not be in favor of a change to this), we have to accept the mistakes, as Galarraga graciously did. Nobody's perfect.

Thanks for your point of view from your pretty unique point of view. Thanks for wearing the stripes at that event!'

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I know, but step 1 is kinda getting a solution that should work. I don't have the knowledge required to do this on my own, all I can really do is spitball ideas.

Wasn't there a automated Frisbee counter they tried and ended up manually counting?

I'm going to guess that they would get an automated system working about the same time as the season ends. People hate FMS and that's something they've been working on ever season to make better. I can't imagine the auto-score nightmare.

I did like your brute force method of 6 people to watch, one for each robot. Techhelpbb offered to help on fixing it, he's part of MAR, I'm sure he can wrangle 5 friends.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Foster

I did like your brute force method of 6 people to watch, one for each robot. Techhelpbb offered to help on fixing it, he's part of MAR, I'm sure he can wrangle 5 friends.

Here's how I wrangle 6 more people....
OH KIDS! Guess what you are going to be doing today

Seriously the people are only part of the solution.
You need some way to reach a resolution between them because with 6 more people you need fast consensus between 12 people.
To keep the game consistent you still need the referees in their existing positions.

BTW you do not necessarily have to integrate the sensors into the field systems.
You could put something to do the data collection and scoring on the side of the field and put the data from that into the field.
If you really want to get crazy - type the scores in manually into either the field side panels or the controls on the desk next to the field (only with permission from FIRST obviously).
It's not like you don't already have the opportunity to mishandle data - otherwise this topic wouldn't exist.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama

How would that make me an adult? Im 100% sure that the point of the ref is to get all the calls right. In football, teams expect the ref to get all the calls right. If we cant expect them to do so, we might as well just play by the honor system. Ill recant my statment about the volunteers thinking they are better but, I stand by my position on the refs.

It would give you some wisdom, which is a defining feature of adulthood.

Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama

I can definitely see you getting mad at a ref in football for making a wrong call. You expect them to get all if not 99.999999999999% of the calls right in football or any other sport, why should it be different for this?

Fourteen nines? Really? If you knew just a little math you would realize how dumb you sound here.

Anyway: No, even for a well-understood game refs are not perfect, simply because of practical things like sight lines. Thus the challenge and video review in the NFL (an explicit recognition that refs are not perfect), but this is not practical for FRC. It's a game, played for fun. Nobody gets paid.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

By the way, if you're going to talk trash, at least do it with your team name and number showing. Don't be a coward about it.

Thank you Akash.

Originally Posted by Libby K

But the answer to this isn't "Why does [event, region, person, whatever] suck?" it's "How do we make this better?"

Spot on Libby.

And thank you Ryan, as always you continue to make me very proud.

And so, Carl the Llama, whoever you happen to be: Does any of this mean something to you? Is there perhaps an inkling of what we're trying to say getting in there? I truly hope so.

Does it suck to have bad calls? Yes, of course, but that happens in real life too - better to learn how to manage is gracefully here than, say, at the wrong end of some cop's gun.

Don