MAR Competitions

[Hoover]

I no longer mentor any team but when I did, one of my multiple roles was coaching for a MAR team. Being with the drive team I could see plainly when something was off. I am not a student so I'd have often have to stop myself. So I used the opportunity to coax one of the drive team or captains go to the question box. I thought of this in a positive way as exercise in assertiveness.

Let me preface this by saying that the Refs job is insane even in years where there isn't as much going on in the field. But this year its madness. If you've ever had your favorite baseball team lose because of one bad call by the umpire, do some Reffing for this years FRC event and multiply that risk by 100. If I were asked if I could help ref, I can't honestly say I'd have the strength of mind to do it.

Lets make this short...

1) One or two team captains would go to the question box
2) The ref staff was busy, then the final score would be displayed
3) The field was reset for the next match
4) The head ref would come over and talk (I'd give real money to have heard what was said)
5) The students would come back and say the score was already finalized and they can't change it
6) A staff member would come back to the pits saying that the refs decisions were final. We were advised to stop questioning the refs or they'd have to lodge a complaint against our team (that's what I thought was happening already but oh, well)
7) The question box is still there, though

So in conclusion, while I've seen some teams be successful in having foul/score adjustments, or being awarded a replay, this is exceedingly rare. We came to accept whatever befell us.

P.S. if I could make one change... If the finalized score overturns the outcome of the final displayed game play score, that they'd be obligated to have the announcer describe why it happened.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Hallry

I've been debating whether or not to post on this thread since I saw it last night. Here it goes.

Anyone that knows me has heard me be captious of certain aspects of both FIRST and MAR multiple times. But something I would never do is openly bash the abilities and efforts of the volunteers.

Why? Because we're all human. We all make mistakes, we all have bad days. Just remember, the refs, judges, field crew, literally everyone at the competition, both on the front line and behind the scenes, are gracious donating their time for you. If you ever think that a volunteer is purposely not putting their all into their job, you're wrong. You just competed at a Week 1 competition, you can't expect everything to go smoothly right out of the gate. But I have no doubt that those in charge are already tirelessly working to make things better. And you should be both respectful and thankful for that.

It's fine to be angry/annoyed/upset, but you can't fault anyone for being fallible.

Well said, Ryan.

I'm a proud Volunteer Coordinator since 2009, serving FIRST Mid-Atlantic since '14. Volunteers across the world for FIRST are excellent and work really dang hard at their jobs - and MAR is no exception... but we are all human. Do bad things happen? Absolutely, and it's not wrong to talk constructively about solutions. But the crews that I've worked with here are consistently hard-working, diligent, and professional. Insulting them instead of working towards a fix is not going to help anyone.

Everyone is human, and it's each of our jobs as a graciously professional human being to make sure that when things go wrong we handle them with grace. The heat of competition can make things get ugly quickly. I'll freely admit I was probably prickly this weekend when referees called things incorrectly - but I also understand that going to a Week 1 event means it's going to be a learning experience for us all... yes, even the event officials.

Remember your Head Ref hadn't seen Stronghold played yet either.

It was absolutely disappointing to hear a ref say "It's a grey area, I couldn't see who initiated contact" when we were hit by an opponent, while traversing our opponent's outer works, & penalties weren't called. My drivers know that's not how G43 works, but the ref our corner of the field didn't. My student stood in the box with the manual and read it with them, and still nothing happened.

It sucks to miss a breach (and the ranking point) by one crossing, to which (a different) ref shrugs and says "Sorry, I must have not seen it, I was focusing on something else, but I'm not changing the score."

I totally get it. Things like that can really sour an event experience.

But the answer to this isn't "Why does [event, region, person, whatever] suck?" it's "How do we make this better?"

Personally, my thought was adding scorekeepers whose only jobs are to watch the Defense crossings, while the refs manage robot-contact. It's something I'm planning on bringing up to the Volunteer Resources folks at HQ on our call - that's the whole point of the weekly reviews for VCs. I'm also suggesting that Refs (not just the head referees) be required to review the Q&A and understand how important or controversial questions might come into play during the upcoming week.

One of the things VCs strive for with all our volunteers is to make sure that they understand the event is about making sure students have a consistent, positive, engaging experience. Even just this weekend, I've had overwhelmingly fantastic experiences with volunteers and event staff - from the way 11's parents & mentors helped us with two Sunday-morning crises, to the rockstar FTA's Kevin and Josh lending us a laptop at the last possible second before a match so we didn't have to get bypassed.

Volunteers are there to make sure teams & attendees have the best experience possible, and so many of them excel at it.

We're all human, and there are incidents where the mark gets missed - there's no denying that. Let's work together on making things better rather than creating more tension.

[Starwarsguy2]

The judges are definitely doing their best with a complicated game with many moving parts. I remember when I reffed an FLL competition and was wracked with fear that I made a bad call. But if I did, the kids calmly asked me about it and I explained the call. They were highly understanding and always showed respect and thanks to me and the other volunteers. Please remember back to FLL in these situations (if you did it) and act accordingly. Considering that that was just FLL, I am amazed by the refs of this years FRC game who have to deal with a much bigger game and more complaints.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Starwarsguy2

The judges are definitely doing their best with a complicated game with many moving parts. I remember when I reffed an FLL competition and was wracked with fear that I made a bad call. But if I did, the kids calmly asked me about it and I explained the call. They were highly understanding and always showed respect and thanks to me and the other volunteers. Please remember back to FLL in these situations (if you did it) and act accordingly. Considering that that was just FLL, I am amazed by the refs of this years FRC game who have to deal with a much bigger game and more complaints.

REFS! REFS WEAR ZEBRA SHIRT.

Judges wear blue.


Come on people, it's not hard... and it hasn't changed.

[Hoover]

An after thought ... The umpire's bad call always was a sort of wild card of the game... up until instant replay started which in a way sort of ruined the game. (just my opinion). No one on the winning team in baseball would contest the bad call. In "the scenes we'd like to see department", someone on CD starts a thread titled "MAR sux because a bad call made us win".

Libby,

I was watching Mt Olive from home via Youtube. It was quite obvious when crossings were being missed. I could almost keep up with both sides at the same time. Someone looking at the live feed down on the floor might be able to help but I don't know if it is allowed.

[Ken Best]

"Why are the officials in the MAR district so bad at their jobs?"
How would you go about making this statement? As with any game, there are decisions made that require quick and accurate thinking. A week one event will obviously have more issues than a week 5 event. Did you watch all of the matches for all events this weekend and then review and review again. knowing every rule, and EVERY FMS and FTA RESPONSE. At one time or another every team has had a unwarranted benefit in a match. As far as RI, the initial inspection is just that. As a robot is viewed and progresses thru the event, different configurations become apparent that may violate the rules. RI's consistently address teams from the start to the end of the event. Every match,every robot and every pit is respectfully monitored so the rules are applied correctly. Things come up that may not have during the teams previous match, it's an ongoing situation. Teams just aren't given the green light once the initial inspection is done.Sometimes violations are noted that require items to be dismantled. It;s unfortunate but the game manual and various resources are in place for the team to avoid these situations.

And why do the volunteers think they're so much better than everyone?
They don't. The Mt.Olive event requires over 120 volunteers that dedicate over 5000 hours in four days. Countless hours are put in from reading and understanding the game manual, to picking up the last peice of gym protector after the field is packed in the pods. Until you do this it all seems like magic to a 9-12 grade person. As one FMS person told me he used to think WOW when entering an event when in HS, now he understands the behind the scenes requirement. Every volunteer at MT Olive went way beyond the norm so that every person there could have a great experience.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Hoover

In "the scenes we'd like to see department", someone on CD starts a thread titled "MAR sux because a bad call made us win".

LOVE to see that one. Anybody says that one, my opinion is that there ought to be space for ya at either DCMP or CMP, whichever one you go to next... regardless of whether you'd have won or lost without that (bad) call going in your favor.

There was something like that at CMP 'bout 3 years ago, or so I hear, where one alliance tried to talk the head ref out of red-carding the other alliance...

[jds2001]

I've been debating whether to respond to this, but I'm going to make one response and that's it.

I was a ref at Mt. Olive. This game is HARD, the sightlines are bad, and we're human. I'm also of the opinion that video replay ruined baseball, and if you think professional umpires get it right all the time, I've got news for you.

However, what made my weekend was when a student came up to me, and said "thanks for the hand signals on the sally port, that really helped". Made my day that someone appreciated what I was doing, knows how hard it is (no video replay is going to be able to get the multiple angles that you have to look to tell a valid crossing), and took the time to tell me so.

What really gets me down is when someone starts a thread like this, with apparently zero knowledge about how it's done, and then expects us to be perfect. We're all human, we make mistakes. However, since the rules do not allow us to look at video (and I would not be in favor of a change to this), we have to accept the mistakes, as Galarraga graciously did. Nobody's perfect.

[techhelpbb]

One thing I love about automation and sensors:
They are without emotion and beyond practiced emotional assault.

Seriously we had sensors under mid-field elements in the past. I think all the people very troubled by these errors or to the way the referees get treated as a result should pony up

I have got at least $250 to take the human out of this crossing scoring. Can go higher for a reusable solution.

I want to see referees like Jon come back next year and people, do not fool yourselves, referees have sworn this job off in the past because of the practiced emotional backlash.

FIRST/MAR you know how to find me to collect your bounty for the sensors.

The issue I see with more volunteers is even if there are referees for the quadrants and the robots (12 referees total) one can still miss things and even if they do not you will have differences of opinion between those watching a robot and those watching the quadrant. The people watching the robots would have to move and then you have mobile wireless terminals and all those issues.

[samefman]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

NFL refs are not 99% perfect, but I can give you three reasons.

1. The FRC game changes each year. For the most part, football hasn't changed in the last half century (some small changes but not as big as a new game each year)
2. FRC refs are volunteers and are trained on site, NFL officials are unionized workers with extensive training and experience.
3. NFL stops game play many time during the game for refs to review and discuss the game, FRC refs do not get a mid-match timeout and cannot review tapes.

Not only that, but NFL referees get paid a lot of money to do what they do and if they make bad calls not only do they risk getting fired, but thousands of football fans bash them. FRC refs do this out of the goodness of their hearts and their love of FIRST. They could be doing anything with their weekend, but instead they choose to come and support FIRST. They try their best and instead of complaining, everyone should either go be a ref and do better than the current ones or try to be patient because it's week one.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

One thing I love about automation and sensors:
They are without emotion and beyond practiced emotional assault.

Seriously we had sensors under mid-field elements in the past. I think all the people very troubled by these errors or to the way the referees get treated as a result should pony up

I have got at least $250 to take the human out of this crossing scoring. Can go higher for a reusable solution.

I want to see referees like Jon come back next year and people, do not fool yourselves, referees have sworn this job off in the past because of the practiced emotional backlash.

FIRST/MAR you know how to find me to collect your bounty for the sensors.

The issue I see with more volunteers is even if there are referees for the quadrants and the robots (12 referees total) one can still miss things and even if they do not you will have differences of opinion between those watching a robot and those watching the quadrant. The people watching the robots would have to move and then you have mobile wireless terminals and all those issues.

Stab in the dark:

There might be enough ferrous crap on an FRC robot (mostly motors) that you could detect crossing by change in magnetic field inducing current in a wire. Wire coils under each defense ramp (in and out) and watch transitions.

Better solution would be some sort of RFID chip on robot (passive) with readers under the ramps to ensure it's one bot doing the crossing. Could possibly do this with the existing radio infrastructure but that's beyond my skill set to quickly figure out.


Or, dumb question: 6 refs, 6 bots... one ref per bot. Like most teams scouting do.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Stab in the dark:

There might be enough ferrous crap on an FRC robot (mostly motors) that you could detect crossing by change in magnetic field inducing current in a wire. Wire coils under each defense ramp (in and out) and watch transitions.

Better solution would be some sort of RFID chip on robot (passive) with readers under the ramps to ensure it's one bot doing the crossing. Could possibly do this with the existing radio infrastructure but that's beyond my skill set to quickly figure out.


Or, dumb question: 6 refs, 6 bots... one ref per bot. Like most teams scouting do.

To be clear we need FIRST to execute it.
I think it can be done technically, but will FIRST go along and do it?
I have no reasonable expectation I can control how FIRST decides to do it (or even if).
If this is a money thing, and surely it is in part a money thing, let's figure out how much cause that interested parties can work out.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

To be clear we need FIRST to execute it.
I think it can be done technically, but will FIRST go along and do it?
I have no reasonable expectation I can control how FIRST decides to do it (or even if).
If this is a money thing, and surely it is in part a money thing, let's figure out how much cause that interested parties can work out.

I know, but step 1 is kinda getting a solution that should work. I don't have the knowledge required to do this on my own, all I can really do is spitball ideas.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by jds2001

I've been debating whether to respond to this, but I'm going to make one response and that's it.

I was a ref at Mt. Olive. This game is HARD, the sightlines are bad, and we're human.

[snip]

What really gets me down is when someone starts a thread like this, with apparently zero knowledge about how it's done, and then expects us to be perfect. We're all human, we make mistakes. However, since the rules do not allow us to look at video (and I would not be in favor of a change to this), we have to accept the mistakes, as Galarraga graciously did. Nobody's perfect.

Thanks for your point of view from your pretty unique point of view. Thanks for wearing the stripes at that event!'

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

I know, but step 1 is kinda getting a solution that should work. I don't have the knowledge required to do this on my own, all I can really do is spitball ideas.

Wasn't there a automated Frisbee counter they tried and ended up manually counting?

I'm going to guess that they would get an automated system working about the same time as the season ends. People hate FMS and that's something they've been working on ever season to make better. I can't imagine the auto-score nightmare.

I did like your brute force method of 6 people to watch, one for each robot. Techhelpbb offered to help on fixing it, he's part of MAR, I'm sure he can wrangle 5 friends.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Foster

I did like your brute force method of 6 people to watch, one for each robot. Techhelpbb offered to help on fixing it, he's part of MAR, I'm sure he can wrangle 5 friends.

Here's how I wrangle 6 more people....
OH KIDS! Guess what you are going to be doing today

Seriously the people are only part of the solution.
You need some way to reach a resolution between them because with 6 more people you need fast consensus between 12 people.
To keep the game consistent you still need the referees in their existing positions.

BTW you do not necessarily have to integrate the sensors into the field systems.
You could put something to do the data collection and scoring on the side of the field and put the data from that into the field.
If you really want to get crazy - type the scores in manually into either the field side panels or the controls on the desk next to the field (only with permission from FIRST obviously).
It's not like you don't already have the opportunity to mishandle data - otherwise this topic wouldn't exist.