Backup Coupon Warning

[Gutherie88]

We, the Robostangs, write this heads up / warning to all teams for the 2016 season. Please note that this post is not intended to challenge the rulings of the referees; the rules of the game were correctly upheld at our event. We simply hope to bring this to everyone’s attention and raise the possibility of reevaluating the definition of an eligible backup robot.

As most of us know, this year's game is more strenuous on robots than ever before. It seemed like every other match had only two robots on an alliance because the third needed to sit out for repairs.

We were the captains of the fourth alliance at the week one FIM Southfield District event. After our first semifinal match, we had already burned through our timeout coupon. After our second quarterfinal match, we were forced to use our backup coupon on behalf of one of our alliance partners due to an extensive drivetrain issue. However, the next highest ranking robot not already on an alliance that was given to us as a backup was not functional. The officials then explained that there cannot be a backup-to-a-backup robot and we would need to accept the new team we had been given. Since we had already submitted the backup coupon, the switch was permanent. We ended up playing the rest of our elimination matches with two robots.

Our message to future alliance captains is to check ahead of time before using a backup coupon. Due to the nature of FIRST Stronghold, many robots may not last until the end of playoff matches. Be sure to carefully weigh your options before utilizing a backup coupon, since a half-functioning, repairable alliance partner may be of greater value than an inoperable backup team. We believe that to make playoffs more fair and give more teams the chance to participate, FIRST should consider reevaluating what qualifies a robot to be available as a backup.

-Team 548

[New Lightning]

If a team is in the top 8 after selection as available for a back up they should have to be functional and if not they should report this to the head ref and if they are called they should decline.

[Basel A]

I believe the backup bot was having a programming issue? It's not that they packed up and left or anything. Plus, I don't think a backup can choose to decline.

I was coaching the opposing alliance when this occurred and thought they got screwed by the rules on this one. I would've been very very okay with the next backup bot coming in.

[jnicho15]

The backup team, helped by a few volunteers, had issues with LabVIEW. Whenever they enabled, the RoboRIO gave an FPGA update version error-even after reflashing on a brand new RoboRIO. During the last semifinal match, since they had a rather simple drive train, they successfully switched to C++, but it was too late.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Plus, I don't think a backup can choose to decline.

What are they going to do? Force them on the field? This is probably more at the discretion of the head ref though if a team were to say we're broken too, take the next guy.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

What are they going to do? Force them on the field? This is probably more at the discretion of the head ref though if a team were to say we're broken too, take the next guy.

Does FMS allow this? Or are back-ups automatically populated by FMS?

[alicen]

In my experience, we've occasionally had back-up bot teams leave, and so when they get called up to compete, they're not there and we move on to the next bot.

So I'm pretty sure FMS can allow "skipping" over a back-up bot for the next one. It's a tough call as a ref to say that you can cherry pick your back-up bot, even if the one you would've gotten is immobile, because that could cost the opposing alliance the match, which also wouldn't be fair.

I don't have a solution to offer to the dilemma either, but I'm sure someone could come up with something that would be better for all

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Does FMS allow this? Or are back-ups automatically populated by FMS?

You manually enter the backup team number into the FMS. Once the backup is entered it cannot be changed.

[New Lightning]

So in the case described by the OP, the refs or whoever was in charge just entered the team number before they figured out that the team was unable to compete>

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by New Lightning

So in the case described by the OP, the refs or whoever was in charge just entered the team number before they figured out that the team was unable to compete>

Well yes, because that's how the rules work. As scorekeeper, the Head Ref tells me (or the FTA, who then tells me) that alliance _ used their backup coupon, and I, with the FTA(s) oversight, enter the backup based on the avialable team list.

Here's (as of 3/9/2016) 5.4.2 from the game manual, which deals with backup robots:

Originally Posted by 2016 Rules 5.4.2

In the Playoff MATCHES, it may be necessary for an ALLIANCE to replace one of its members due to a faulty ROBOT. ROBOT faults include but are not limited to:

1. Damaged mechanicals,
2. Electrical issues,
3. Software problems

In this situation, the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN has the option to invite the highest seeded eligible Team from the pool of available Teams to join its ALLIANCE. The Team who’s ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM replaces another ROBOT and DRIVE TEAM on an ALLIANCE during the Playoff MATCHES is called the BACKUP
TEAM.

The resulting ALLIANCE is then composed of four (4) Teams. The replaced Team remains a member of the ALLIANCE for awards, but cannot return to play, even if their ROBOT is repaired.

Each ALLIANCE is allotted one (1) BACKUP TEAM Coupon during the Playoff MATCHES. If a second ROBOT from the ALLIANCE becomes inoperable, then the ALLIANCE must play the following MATCHES with only two (2) (or even one (1)) ROBOTS.

Example: Three (3) Teams, A, B and C, form an ALLIANCE going
into the Playoff MATCHES. The highest seeded Team not on one
of the eight (8) ALLIANCES is Team D. During one of the Playoff
MATCHES, Team C’s ROBOT suffers damage to its mechanical arm.
The ALLIANCE CAPTAIN decides to bring in Team D to replace Team
C. Team C and their ROBOT are not eligible to play in any subsequent
Playoff MATCHES. The new ALLIANCE of Teams A, B, and D are
successful in advancing to the Finals and win the event. Teams A, B,
C, and D are all recognized as members of the Winning Alliance and
receive awards.

In the case where a BACKUP TEAM is part of the Winning or Finalist ALLIANCE, there will be a four (4)-Team Winning or Finalist ALLIANCE.

Note that there is no opt out provision. Your coupon gets you the highest seeded undrafted team. No if's, and's, or but's. Honestly I think it is an unforeseen issue that should be fixed by an extra provision, however, I'm not on the GDC.

[ATannahill]

The operative word in Larry's quote is available.[1]

Is a team that packed up and bagged and tagged their robot available? Is a team that cannot be found available? Is the team that is in the middle of replacing their wheels/intake/whatever available? This could be a judgement call on the ref or whoever is trying to find the teams and I know the first two have been used as reasons to skip over teams that were next ranked.

[1] I also notice the word eligible. Is there a way to not be eligible as a back-up? I would not call being a back-up as being picked, so I would not enact the you cannot decline a pick and then later be picked by a difference alliance rule.

[EricH]

I've been at an event where Backup #1 was, at one time, in the venue in the "backup holding pen". Backup #2 was also there.

Last match of the event, a backup is called in. Backup #1 is no longer in the "holding pen", and is not in their pit. Backup #2... well, they were ready to play, and took home a silver medal for their efforts.


I'd say, personally, that if you can't find a team, OR the team specifically says "We are not playing in eliminations", it's safe to assume that they are not available. Not being a head ref, I can't speak to any part of that process.

[ratdude747]

My understanding had always been that "available" meant "undrafted", which would be any team not called at any point during alliance selection, which excludes declines. Note that the list of teams undrafted is referred to as "available" during alliance selection in the audience screen program (the link between FMS and the AV crew).

I will also quote the last part of Game Manual 5.4.1, which is about alliance selection:

Originally Posted by 2016 rules 5.4.1

Of the remaining eligible Teams, the highest seeded Teams (up to eight (8)) should remain on standby and be ready to play as a BACKUP TEAM.

That leads me to believe, in the current rules, that it is assumed that "available" is determined exclusively by the alliance selection process, not the volition of the team(s) in question. I don't like it, and I think this needs to be Q&A'd, both as a question and as a concern given the conditions this year.

Likewise, in 548's case, the robot/team in question was undrafted, and likely not bagged, and from gist of the OP, that was enough for the powers the be at the event to call said team as the backup.

[Coach Seb]

We were the first unranked team at the Waterford event and when we got call in to jump in the District Finals as backup, we had to scramble to get everything ready to go, pack tool box, identify who will be there etc....

Good news is that most of our team was on the practice field taking advantage of this time to tune the bots for our next event.

As rookie team, we really did not totally get how this work, i can guarantee you that next time we will have our stuff ready to go... At the same time, it could have been an oversight not to get the backup team ready, things are getting so crazy!!!! and yes it was an unbelievable experience.

[Chris is me]

Teams should have to accept being a backup. They have to accept being picked, why is it any different for being a backup? And what team would accept being a backup if they were inoperable?

By the way, it's always a good idea to talk to the backup team when you get a spare moment in the elims and assess what they can do for your alliance.