Backup Coupon Warning

[Owen Busler]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Teams should have to accept being a backup. They have to accept being picked, why is it any different for being a backup?

But you dont have to accept being picked. You have the right to deny an alliance and not compete in elims, why should that change for backups?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Coach Seb

We were the first unranked team at the Waterford event and when we got call in to jump in the District Finals as backup, we had to scramble to get everything ready to go, pack tool box, identify who will be there etc....

Good news is that most of our team was on the practice field taking advantage of this time to tune the bots for our next event.

As rookie team, we really did not totally get how this work, i can guarantee you that next time we will have our stuff ready to go... At the same time, it could have been an oversight not to get the backup team ready, things are getting so crazy!!!! and yes it was an unbelievable experience.

I was sitting in the stands next to your team when you were called in for service. It was pretty neat.

[DrWaSaBi]

So my take away from all of this is. Don't be too quick to pack up and leave if you still have an operational robot?

-R3

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Owen Busler

But you dont have to accept being picked. You have the right to deny an alliance and not compete in elims, why should that change for backups?

That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).

[logank013]

How will this work at certain district events that have only 25 teams attending? What if 2 or more alliances need a back up? what if there is a no show? What if the only backup is broken. Will be interesting to see.

[Francis-134]

Originally Posted by logank013

How will this work at certain district events that have only 25 teams attending? What if 2 or more alliances need a back up? what if there is a no show? What if the only backup is broken. Will be interesting to see.

I cannot speak to what is supposed to happen this year, but WAY back in 2005, there were 24 robots at the Waterloo Regional. To ensure there were backup teams, the eliminations went through with only 7 alliances (1 seed got a bye into the semis).

[Gutherie88]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).

One problem that could possibly come about from this is the ability of an alliance captain to pressure the first choice backup robot to deny the offer in order to receive a more well equipped backup.

Giving the head official the authority to decide whether the first backup can be given the choice to accept or decline would be a smart decision.

If the first choice is given the option to say no, and proceeds to decline, the team cannot accept any other offers to be a backup robot. Similar to a team outside the top eight during alliance selection.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Francis-134

I cannot speak to what is supposed to happen this year, but WAY back in 2005, there were 24 robots at the Waterloo Regional. To ensure there were backup teams, the eliminations went through with only 7 alliances (1 seed got a bye into the semis).

Wow... that is a lot time ago. It would be interesting to see that again.

[YoshiCity]

What would happen if a team declined a normal alliance selection as, say, #9 rank, and a backup team was requested during elimination play?

[orangelight]

Originally Posted by YoshiCity

What would happen if a team declined a normal alliance selection as, say, #9 rank, and a backup team was requested during elimination play?

From the manual

If a Team declines the ALLIANCE Lead position or doesn’t send a student representative for ALLIANCE
selection, they are ineligible to participate in the Playoff Tournament

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by orangelight

From the manual

5.4.1 also says:

Originally Posted by 2016 Rules 5.4.1

If the Team declines, that Team is not eligible to be picked again or to be a BACKUP TEAM (see Section 5.4.2 BACKUP TEAMS), and the ALLIANCE CAPTAIN extends another invitation to a different Team. If an invitation from a top eight ALLIANCE to another ALLIANCE Lead is declined, the declining Team may still invite Teams to join their ALLIANCE; however, it cannot accept invitations from other ALLIANCES.

So, if you decline and don't become an alliance captain (even by your own volition), pack your pit, you're not playing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

My understanding had always been that "available" meant "undrafted", which would be any team not called at any point during alliance selection, which excludes declines. Note that the list of teams undrafted is referred to as "available" during alliance selection in the audience screen program (the link between FMS and the AV crew).

I will also quote the last part of Game Manual 5.4.1, which is about alliance selection:



That leads me to believe, in the current rules, that it is assumed that "available" is determined exclusively by the alliance selection process, not the volition of the team(s) in question. I don't like it, and I think this needs to be Q&A'd, both as a question and as a concern given the conditions this year.

Likewise, in 548's case, the robot/team in question was undrafted, and likely not bagged, and from gist of the OP, that was enough for the powers the be at the event to call said team as the backup.

This appears to be looking for an implicit definition of "available." However as pointed out, teams not present but "available" under this definition would have to be accepted and that has not been the case. A clear definition of "available" is needed here, and it should include functionally "available."

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

This appears to be looking for an implicit definition of "available." However as pointed out, teams not present but "available" under this definition would have to be accepted and that has not been the case. A clear definition of "available" is needed here, and it should include functionally "available."

And this why if I had a formal team affiliation I'd be Q&A'ing it.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

That's what I'm saying - to be picked, you have to accept. To be a backup, you should also have to accept (as in have the opportunity to decline).

Here's an odd scenario that seems legal and sketchy albeit highly risky if actually planned. Team A seeds first and picks Team B who is far better than the 16th available robot that is not in top 8, Team B declines and therefore no other alliance can pick them. Team A picks Team C as no 1 pick and D as no 16. Before the first match Team A uses backup coupon to swap Team B in for Team D (who isn't actually broken) since B was very well ranked but not in top 8 they are now the back up bot. Obviously a huge gamble with in-picking etc.

There's nothing that stops a team from declining right now and still playing as the back up. Should there be?

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

Here's an odd scenario that seems legal and sketchy albeit highly risky if actually planned. Team A seeds first and picks Team B who is far better than the 16th available robot that is not in top 8, Team B declines and therefore no other alliance can pick them. Team A picks Team C as no 1 pick and D as no 16. Before the first match Team A uses backup coupon to swap Team B in for Team D (who isn't actually broken) since B was very well ranked but not in top 8 they are now the back up bot. Obviously a huge gamble with in-picking etc.

There's nothing that stops a team from declining right now and still playing as the back up. Should there be?

Well, there's the rule quoted about 3 posts up...