Cheesecake robot. How far is too far?

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

My feelings on cheesecake is that as long you aren't stripping major fuctions off of the receiving team's robot for the cheesecake is not okay in my opinion. I know it's allowed currently and I'll respect teams who do it but I'm never going to like it. Putting can grabbers or simple blockers is one thing. But say taking a stacker off for a better stacker is too far.

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

None of that is particularly relevant to this discussion. Nobody here is claiming that alliance selection is perfect. There are plenty of shortcomings in many facets of FRC, alliance selection included. However, claiming that because a system has other potential flaws means you should embrace a contentious aspect is not sound logic. I don't have to pick a bad option* just because there are even worse options. Strive to optimize the situation, rather than perpetuating the flaws.

*Do not interpret this to mean I'm definitely declaring that cheesecaking is a bad option. I'm just illustrating my logic.


The drivetrain scenario is cheesecaking (albeit, offering parts solely on the condition that a team will be on your alliance may not leave the best taste in many people's mouths).
The second scenario is picking based off of strategy. I'm not advocating we take the ability to select strategically out of the hands of alliance captains. I'm not advocating we take any selection choices out of the hands of alliance captains.

I'll try to word my point slightly differently, in the hopes it is better communicated.

When people cite the inspirational value of cheesecaking, they're almost always talking about the team receiving the cheesecake. They talk about the inspirational value of winning (which has also shown up in many other threads). They talk about the inspirational value of getting to work closely with powerhouse teams as alliance partners. They talk about the inspirational value of collaborating together to improve a robot. When all parties are on the same page, that can be some real value.

However, the benefit of one team is not the total utility of the move. That one team may have been very inspired, but that doesn't mean other parties were not disillusioned by the same circumstances. The cheesecaked team was granted an opportunity, but (barring a 24 team event) another team was left out in order for that team to have that opportunity. In the case of a large and highly competitive event (such as a championship subdivision), the teams left out are highly capable teams already. Seeing a highly competitive (by any metric) team left on the sidelines in favor of a "blank slate" is something that would obviously raise questions and mixed emotions. Not simply for the teams excluded, but for parents, VIPs, sponsors, and others who may not be familiar with the esoteric practices of FRC.

I'm not arguing that cheesecake is automatically bad. I'm not arguing that cheesecake is automatically good. I'm stating that there are factors that should be considered, beyond how the teams receiving the cheesecake feel. They are not the sole parties impact by the act of cheesecaking. Like it or not, some of the peculiar things that happen in FRC might not appeal to the grandmothers in the audience.

Based on the comments in this thread and many of those preceding, you know firsthand that there are plenty of those out there who did not get the same takeaway from your partnership with 1114 as you did. Some of that is based hearsay or factual inaccuracies. You can do your best to communicate the real story, but you're never going to reach everyone. Further still, there are those who know what happened and still don't like it. These are people who are ultimately aiming for the same culture change, and their opinions of the situation do matter, even if they were not directly involved.

To me, cheesecaking is obviously a grey area.


I have no idea what this statement is in response to. Nothing in my posts in this thread or the previous thread stated anything regarding the validity of qualification rankings. Nor were any of my positions "slippery slopes." As stated, my position was pointing out that the totality should be considered, not simply the one team that (in some cases) benefits positively. My position, as stated, was that the benefits of cheesecaking and being an alliance partner are (unfortunately) zero-sum. Neither of those are arguing that cheesecaking is a slippery slope, but rather they're challenging the logic being used here. Nor am I even claiming to have all the answers (and the post you quoted from the other thread makes that very clear).

I appreciate the response and I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now.

Ultimately I don't view this as a grey area or a zero-sum situation but that is me. I think the competitive nature of FRC and the rules both enable and encourage "cheesecaking".

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by marshall

I think the competitive nature of FRC and the rules both enable and encourage "cheesecaking".

I believe this statement is absolutely true. I also believe this is the root of the underlying frustration for all involved.