Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by BBaltrusch

I'm all for MN districts, as long as the North Dakota teams are allowed in. There's only 3 of us and we're on the eastern side of the state. It's a loooong way to a regional if not. I believe South Dakota has 2 teams but they're on the western side and go to events that way. I'm volunteering at Iowa and would be happy to talk with anyone there.

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

I don’t view the state championship in such high regards that it should dramatically hinder FRC in MN. There would be a district champs that, at least for me, would more than make up for it. I think MN FRIST, to be somewhat competitive, has to make the change very soon. I’m planning on volunteering next year just to help with the whole “we need more volunteers" argument. If state means so much, we could have a state championship with only MN teams (assuming MN going to districts would include ND teams).

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

I don’t view the state championship in such high regards that it should dramatically hinder FRC in MN. There would be a district champs that, at least for me, would more than make up for it. I think MN FRIST, to be somewhat competitive, has to make the change very soon. I’m planning on volunteering next year just to help with the whole “we need more volunteers" argument. If state means so much, we could have a state championship with only MN teams (assuming MN going to districts would include ND teams).

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".

I didn’t really think of it from that point of view. I went to a school with many state championships to its name, and it really devalues them. I’m guessing if MN went to districts we would include other areas outside of MN, and that would still leave room for a MN state championship offseason event similar to the current model. We could also take the average points from the first two events instead of just the first event, which would be a big plus in my book.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

In my opinion there are two clear paths forward for MSHSL in our hypothetical districts future:

1: MSHSL State Championship gets blended into the FIRST State Championship

Obviously, this only works if we don't take any other states along with us to districts. I also have no idea how amenable MSHSL would be to this, but it doesn't seem particularly complicated if nobody's feelings are going to get hurt.

2: MSHSL continues as is, but now they can count two events per team

Also a pretty simple way forward, there's just a 'small' naming issue with having two State Tournaments. This also doesn't seem particularly complicated to me. The perhaps minor change to this versus the FIRST model is that the MSHSL model would likely simply be the first two events anywhere that a team attends, as opposed to the first two events in district (which, as I understand it, is how district events are).

In the second case there's a question of whether to assess point rankings based on how MN calculates them or how FIRST calculates them. Obviously the first method is easier than the second, but there are some good fairness reasons that MN currently calculates based on the first event. That strikes me more as a discussion that needs to happen versus a major complication.

There may be other alternatives, but those are the two that come to mind.

Wow, I hope I can worry about this more soon.

Originally Posted by maxnz

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

And a MN bot was nail bitingly close to winning Einstein last year too even though it was MN's first year on Einstein..

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by Jaci

From my view, 8 matches to prove yourself is too few.
Here in Australia, most teams (mine included) only get 8 matches to prove ourselves and qualify for a shot at Championships (excluding chairmans of course). 8 matches. That's it. We can't split into events per state since there's not enough teams yet, with many teams competing in our regional coming from Taiwan and China..

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

As a member of 5333, I'm more than aware and agree. Over the next few years, we are planning to start more FRC teams in Western Australia, however I stick with my point that going to more than 1 regional is quite a hefty expense. Looking at the TBA page of the Australian Regional you can see that the large majority of teams do choose to only compete in the Australian Regional. For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by Jaci

For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism for the entirety of the match and we were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism. We were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

I recall this being quite common. 4788 was having a similar issue with their gamepad, and so we had to share our Xbox controller between two teams, which got interesting when both teams had to compete at the same time. I also recall many teams having software issues, as most of my time was spent running around getting other people's robots up and running. Hopefully we see some good alliances made this year. I pray to the FMS gods

[Chief Hedgehog]

As far as Minnesota is concerned:

In NO WAY can the MSHSL League be discounted. They were incredible enough to include FRC as a legitimate organization. I cannot state enough how much respect I have for MN FIRST as well as the MSHSL to make this happen. A third partner in all of this (the UofM) cannot be overlooked as they provide the space and time for the MSHSL FRC Tournament to happen. As we move forward - there must be only ONE state championship, otherwise it will be watered down.

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

In fact, Becker High School takes FRC seriously as it hangs TWO banners for our FRC team in the Gymnasium for our 2013 and 2014 state title runs. The community thinks it is important as well - when you enter Becker via US Hwy 10 you will see FRC 4607 State Champs 2013 hanging proudly on the sign.

When MN FIRST goes districts, the format must be a MSHSL tourney event.

[HurdFIRST]

Gonna level with you guys, there's a lot of text walls in this thread and I did not read all of them. I'm just gonna comment on my unique experience.

As a key volunteer I'm currently writing this post while laying on the floor of a Kettering University student's dorm, next to the gym I just announced a district in for the second straight week. I did 11 FRC events in total last year and plan on doing 8 more this year.

The volunteers in Michigan aren't aquaintances, we're family. That's why Zach Orr flies from Atlanta to Flint just so he can introduce teams on my shoulders, that's why FTA's Rob and Eric are superman and batman respectively, and it's why I'll always have a couch (or floor) to crash on within the borders of the mitten state.

Your key volunteers might not have the time to do 12 events, but your college students are young proffesionals who are passionate about impacting lives like their volunteers did for them. These college students have the time to do 6 weeks of events, and they understand how to keep the competition experience relevant since they understand what it's like to compete as a student.

Dave Verbrugge and Tom Nader do not do 6 events a season in Michigan as an MC/GA duo, but they're still directly responsible for showing me how to make incredible formative experiences for the students at the combined 19 events I've participated in these past two years.

Changing lives as a key volunteer is not a right reserved for the "elite" among us anymore. If you're afraid that someone's going to be "just meh" at scorekeeping more than you're afraid that some kids at an inner city Minneanapolis school won't be able to participate because of the price, then you need to reavaluate why you're even here.

Did the DJ at today's St. Joseph event play smooth jazz dinner music before the final elim match? He sure did and it kinda killed my buzz. Did it stop the students on Stryke Force from making a memory they'll always remember as they won that blue banner? No it sure didn't!

I'm not here for the vibe, I'm here to impact lives.

#BringOutYourDead

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ryan,
I don't want to blame rural teams, I am just pointing to the issue that some have. That is one or perhaps two mentors working incredibly hard to bring FRC to their small school. I cannot ask a mentor in that situation to volunteer when they are already working harder than I am, to insure their small team has a quality program. My hat is off to those teams and their dedicated mentors.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Ryan,
I don't want to blame rural teams, I am just pointing to the issue that some have. That is one or perhaps two mentors working incredibly hard to bring FRC to their small school. I cannot ask a mentor in that situation to volunteer when they are already working harder than I am, to insure their small team has a quality program. My hat is off to those teams and their dedicated mentors.

I fully agree. Sorry if I implied that you were "blaming" rural teams. There are teams in Minnesota that can't do anything more than field a semi-functional robot. I have a huge respect for those mentors that make that happen from little to no resources.

I just meant to say that MN FIRST shouldn't let the limits of some teams limit the improvement of the organization as a whole. When districts happen, if there is a volunteer requirement, exceptions will have to be made in the cases of these hard-working, yet small teams.