Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by maxnz

Minnesota added 19 teams this year. If we grow by the same number next year we're at 227, and the year after that 246.

Becoming a district is something we will want to do very soon if we want to be under the magic number of 240 when we switch.

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by Tanis

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.

I was basing the 19 off of the number of rookie teams, not taking into account any teams that stopped competing at the end of last year.

Still, MN FIRST is growing fast.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Tanis

I wouldn't count on that kind of continued growth.

The last big jump was 2012 (153) to 2013 (180).
2013 to 2014 was only 6 teams.
2014 to 2015 brought in another 6 (to 192).
2015 to 2016 was actually 16 (we are currently at 208).

We have also hit the point at which we have a team at most schools that can support an FRC team (and some that really can't). Many of the schools looking at FRC would be much better off with an FTC team. These are schools with around 100 students total in rural areas without many local companies to leverage for money and mentors.

I think there is a lot more growth potential. The Twin Cities and Duluth areas are overpopulated/at full capacity, but there is a massive untapped source of teams in the Central MN area, extending to the North and West to Fargo, ND. I think hitting that 240 mark is more than reasonable within 3-4 years.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The most important part is having the leadership in MN want to make the move to the District System. Once you have that then you can make it happen.

I fear that this is what the actual hold-up is.

What follows is going to be part open letter, part response to this thread in general.

I can understand logistical concerns about districts here. I can understand concerns about not having enough volunteers. Heck, I can even understand the apprehension that those who are currently running our events (and, yes, are doing a fantastic job with the rather terrible position we're in of so many teams and so little time) may have of losing the control they currently have of our system. I can understand concerns about lower event quality and I can understand concerns that we might not be able to meet our own lofty standards for events.

What I really cannot understand is how districts has become a taboo topic of discussion in Minnesota, and why there doesn't seem to be any plan whatsoever, or even a vague notion that Minnesota can go to districts in the foreseeable future. I don't understand how we came to this deadlock where it's a rookie student that asks the question "So what exactly do we need to go to districts?"

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what the deal is. It seems like everyone is acting according to what they believe to be the program's best interests at heart, but somewhere along the line the community here lost an entire set of people who could have been welcomed into helping FRC in Minnesota move forward, but have instead been pushed away from volunteering (or in some cases even being a part of the program). I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

Maybe this post feels like I'm trying to place the blame at the feet of the nebulous and ambiguous "them"-- those who are in charge of MN FIRST. That isn't the case. I have nothing but respect for "them" and what they have done for the program here. I just find it sad and unfortunate that there are so many people who want to help make MN FIRST better, but have been pushed away or become disillusioned with the current state of affairs, and that it doesn't appear likely to change any time soon.

I'm still looking for meaningful ways to move us towards districts, but I honestly don't know what I can do other than continue volunteering and running the workshops I do with GOFIRST. That's something that I think is a major part of the problem-- there isn't a lack of desire for districts here, there's a lack of direction for what we can do to move towards it. Vague calls for "more volunteers" aren't a meaningful answer to this question-- it's very clear that there's more that needs to happen, and at least from where I'm standing it looks like there's more that we can start doing now.

We want to help.

Let us.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

We want to help.

Let us.

I totally agree. If the leadership needs help, then just ask and the community will deliver. That's one thing I've learned so far in my 5 months of being with FIRST.

[Nemo]

I agree that requiring teams to bring a couple of volunteers each, like they did in Michigan, is a good place to start.

I can only imagine how much work it would be to start a new district. I'm not going to whine that other people aren't doing that work, but I will definitely be happy when we finally go that direction in this part of the country.

[maxnz]

So, should we work on this now while we have a few weeks until the next MN competitions? Or should we wait until May after championships is over before we do anything? Personally, I'd prefer sooner, but I want to know what you all think first.

[BBaltrusch]

I'm all for MN districts, as long as the North Dakota teams are allowed in. There's only 3 of us and we're on the eastern side of the state. It's a loooong way to a regional if not. I believe South Dakota has 2 teams but they're on the western side and go to events that way. I'm volunteering at Iowa and would be happy to talk with anyone there.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by BBaltrusch

I'm all for MN districts, as long as the North Dakota teams are allowed in. There's only 3 of us and we're on the eastern side of the state. It's a loooong way to a regional if not. I believe South Dakota has 2 teams but they're on the western side and go to events that way. I'm volunteering at Iowa and would be happy to talk with anyone there.

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

I don’t view the state championship in such high regards that it should dramatically hinder FRC in MN. There would be a district champs that, at least for me, would more than make up for it. I think MN FRIST, to be somewhat competitive, has to make the change very soon. I’m planning on volunteering next year just to help with the whole “we need more volunteers" argument. If state means so much, we could have a state championship with only MN teams (assuming MN going to districts would include ND teams).

[novamx3]

As a mentor for a team who currently does not volunteer, I can tell you that I'd be willing to take on a role in a district event, or a few of them, if I didn't have to miss more of my day job than I already do. Currently, I sit in the stands and watch my team compete at regionals. If I felt there was a need beyond working the safety glasses (which I have my students do) I'd have volunteered years ago. I make it a point to talk to and work with as many teams as possible between matches but that's slightly redundant since there are others that already do that, and my students can handle it. I've got 9 years of FRC experience as a mentor but none as a volunteer or tournament organizer.

My point is, there have to be at least a couple of dozen mentors that would step up to make this happen. We'd gladly host an event and the entire thing would save us $3,000 a year plus travel costs... I'd guess I've got at least 3 or 4 other mentors on my team that could handle key roles in district events...

If you build it, they will come!

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

I don’t view the state championship in such high regards that it should dramatically hinder FRC in MN. There would be a district champs that, at least for me, would more than make up for it. I think MN FRIST, to be somewhat competitive, has to make the change very soon. I’m planning on volunteering next year just to help with the whole “we need more volunteers" argument. If state means so much, we could have a state championship with only MN teams (assuming MN going to districts would include ND teams).

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

The Minnesota State Championship is so much more than just another off season competition. The partnership with the MSHSL gives validation to many teams within their schools. When 4607 won State in 2013, we brought Becker High School its 3rd State Championship in its history. That's something that "non-robotics" students can look at, and relate to. The next year our team grew by more than 200%.

When we go to districts, we need to find a way to maintain the partnership with the MSHSL. In my mind, it's not an option, it has to continue. I think that sentiment is shared by those who have decision making power within MN FIRST. In my opinion every state would benefit by partnering with its version of the Minnesota State High School League.

As for districts... I'd love to see it happen. I also understand the arguments made by both sides (for the most part). Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

One thing I would really miss about the regional system is the super events hosted at Minneapolis and Duluth. There's just something about having 120+ teams in one location, not to mention teams from Hawaii, China, and Australia. It's a tradeoff going to the district system for sure, and I can absolutely see why people would want to hang on to the regional system. In my mind, the competitive, and financial improvements are worth the change.

Eventually districts are going to happen. I think the groundwork is in place that we will be ready when it happens. There is work to do, but there is always work to do. I definitely agree with the Field of Dreams approach, "If you build it, they will come".

I didn’t really think of it from that point of view. I went to a school with many state championships to its name, and it really devalues them. I’m guessing if MN went to districts we would include other areas outside of MN, and that would still leave room for a MN state championship offseason event similar to the current model. We could also take the average points from the first two events instead of just the first event, which would be a big plus in my book.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.

tl;dr

Districts are good for teams, but there's a lot of effort needed. Good thing there are active alumni who volunteer, without them it won't work.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Districts would undoubtedly raise the competitive level in Minnesota (there is no question about that. Those that deny this fact are ignorant to the facts). Right now, MN teams aren't as strong on average as many other regions. That's partially because we're a very young region, but it's also partially because the teams in MN get so little opportunity to improve at a 2nd event. It's very hard to get into 2 Minnesota regionals.

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)