Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

My 2 biggest concerns about MN going to districts are putting ND teams on an island, and our partnership with the Minnesota State High School Leauge, specifically the State Championship event held after the official FRC season. I think both things could be worked out, but I don't personally see a simple solution to the State Championship issue. I'd love to hear the ideas from people in this thread for how that issue can be worked out.

In my opinion there are two clear paths forward for MSHSL in our hypothetical districts future:

1: MSHSL State Championship gets blended into the FIRST State Championship

Obviously, this only works if we don't take any other states along with us to districts. I also have no idea how amenable MSHSL would be to this, but it doesn't seem particularly complicated if nobody's feelings are going to get hurt.

2: MSHSL continues as is, but now they can count two events per team

Also a pretty simple way forward, there's just a 'small' naming issue with having two State Tournaments. This also doesn't seem particularly complicated to me. The perhaps minor change to this versus the FIRST model is that the MSHSL model would likely simply be the first two events anywhere that a team attends, as opposed to the first two events in district (which, as I understand it, is how district events are).

In the second case there's a question of whether to assess point rankings based on how MN calculates them or how FIRST calculates them. Obviously the first method is easier than the second, but there are some good fairness reasons that MN currently calculates based on the first event. That strikes me more as a discussion that needs to happen versus a major complication.

There may be other alternatives, but those are the two that come to mind.

Wow, I hope I can worry about this more soon.

Originally Posted by maxnz

No Minnesota team has ever won Einstein. I looked. (2512 did make it to the Einstein finals last year)

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by Jaci

From my view, 8 matches to prove yourself is too few.
Here in Australia, most teams (mine included) only get 8 matches to prove ourselves and qualify for a shot at Championships (excluding chairmans of course). 8 matches. That's it. We can't split into events per state since there's not enough teams yet, with many teams competing in our regional coming from Taiwan and China..

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Australia is a big country, there is currently only 1 regional, which is a week three event which is located in Sydney, on the otherside of the country from teams like 5333,5663 and 4788. For those teams to come to the regional in Sydney the only option is to fly as it is a 4000km(2500 mile) journey by road. Australia is roughly the same size as the USA, so it would be like travelling from the West Coast to New York to attend a regional, and flights are quite expensive because of this. Currently the other nearest regional is Hawaii and a few Australian teams attend, this year team 3132 competed at Northern Lights, and will compete at the Australian Regional and Hawaiian Regional in the coming weeks and team 4613 is competing at the Australian Regional and then the Western Canada Regional

As a member of 5333, I'm more than aware and agree. Over the next few years, we are planning to start more FRC teams in Western Australia, however I stick with my point that going to more than 1 regional is quite a hefty expense. Looking at the TBA page of the Australian Regional you can see that the large majority of teams do choose to only compete in the Australian Regional. For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

I see 2 major issues with this:
-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.
-This also leaves the teams that do qualify for champs hugely unprepared. Most MN teams at champs will have ~20 plays, versus district teams that will have 40+ plays. EDIT: Many teams come into champs with 80+ plays

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.

Peter,
Are you aware of the push to get other regionals in MN.? Are you aware of the demand on volunteers for the existing events? Did you mention the number of teams served in the double Duluth event? The Minnesota events are some of the largest in the country.
In Duluth, the volunteer picture took an entire field to hold and the photographer was required to take the picture from the balcony. And still there were not enough.
There are people working tirelessly behind the scenes to continue to improve MN. However, among other issues, many rural teams in MN do not have enough adults to supply the volunteer pool at the event they attend. I know the volunteer coordinator personally and the job of manning all of the required volunteer positions is nearly impossible. While teams may not be happy with the number of matches at a single event, there are a variety of other alternatives that a team can follow. I can assure you (and everyone reading this) that every event in MN is working hard to get volunteers. Many come from other states, without their teams, to volunteer at MN events including the State Championship. I wish Illinois had a State Championship. We have tried to influence the state for many years but thus far have failed. A lot more of our teams get only one regional event and have no state champs to look forward to.

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

WildStang has been around for a long time. Our rookie year, the only regional was in Manchester and the Champs were in Disney World. Our second year, there were two regionals, Manchester and Chicago. When other regionals started later, we traveled to Ann Arbor, MI. That event was further from us than Duluth. Teams work out the issues to get to events. Minnesota teams will work out this issues too. The same for Sydney, which I expect will be a wonderful event. While there will not be as many rookies as the first Minnesota event (I was LRI at that event), there will be more than twenty and some from very small, outback schools. I pray they all will have a wonderful time. I will do my best to make that happen, see you in a few days.

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by Jaci

For these teams, I'm sure you'd agree that only 8 matches to play (assuming they are not picked up in alliance selections) is very few

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism for the entirety of the match and we were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

If you look back further, you'll see that last year was the first time Minnesota wheels touched the Einstein carpet.

And a MN bot was nail bitingly close to winning Einstein last year too even though it was MN's first year on Einstein..

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I know the volunteer coordinator personally and the job of manning all of the required volunteer positions is nearly impossible.

Can confirm that managing volunteers is incredibly difficult. In my short experience managing around 30 Bison Robotics Volunteers, I can say it's one if the most challenging things I've done. I work very closely with the Volunteer Coordinator for Minnesota and I am blown away by how smoothly the events run, given the challenges that are overcome. Nothing but positive things to say about the leadership in Minnesota.

I'm not so sure that the "rural teams" in Minnesota don't have volunteers to contribute. Being that I'm from one of those rural teams, and I work with many more of them within our local hub, I know they have volunteers to contribute. They just have no incentive to do so right now. Now obviously there are smaller teams out there, and teams that would be incapable of providing volunteers, but there are many more teams out there with enough people to provide many volunteers. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.

I fully agree that MN FIRST is doing their best, and the leadership is doing their best. I'm very appreciative of their efforts. I just wish I could do more to help.

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Yes I completely agree, also the 8 match system means that teams who might have a problem with their robot in a few matches, or as can be a problem in Australia due to the young age of teams, teams which have capable robots can receive low rank because they have ended up in poor alliances during qualifications. For example at the 2015 Australia Regional, we encountered some issues with the Logitech game pad, and as a result we were unable to use our stacking mechanism. We were the only team on our alliance whose robot was moving.

I recall this being quite common. 4788 was having a similar issue with their gamepad, and so we had to share our Xbox controller between two teams, which got interesting when both teams had to compete at the same time. I also recall many teams having software issues, as most of my time was spent running around getting other people's robots up and running. Hopefully we see some good alliances made this year. I pray to the FMS gods

[Chief Hedgehog]

As far as Minnesota is concerned:

In NO WAY can the MSHSL League be discounted. They were incredible enough to include FRC as a legitimate organization. I cannot state enough how much respect I have for MN FIRST as well as the MSHSL to make this happen. A third partner in all of this (the UofM) cannot be overlooked as they provide the space and time for the MSHSL FRC Tournament to happen. As we move forward - there must be only ONE state championship, otherwise it will be watered down.

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

In fact, Becker High School takes FRC seriously as it hangs TWO banners for our FRC team in the Gymnasium for our 2013 and 2014 state title runs. The community thinks it is important as well - when you enter Becker via US Hwy 10 you will see FRC 4607 State Champs 2013 hanging proudly on the sign.

When MN FIRST goes districts, the format must be a MSHSL tourney event.

[HurdFIRST]

Gonna level with you guys, there's a lot of text walls in this thread and I did not read all of them. I'm just gonna comment on my unique experience.

As a key volunteer I'm currently writing this post while laying on the floor of a Kettering University student's dorm, next to the gym I just announced a district in for the second straight week. I did 11 FRC events in total last year and plan on doing 8 more this year.

The volunteers in Michigan aren't aquaintances, we're family. That's why Zach Orr flies from Atlanta to Flint just so he can introduce teams on my shoulders, that's why FTA's Rob and Eric are superman and batman respectively, and it's why I'll always have a couch (or floor) to crash on within the borders of the mitten state.

Your key volunteers might not have the time to do 12 events, but your college students are young proffesionals who are passionate about impacting lives like their volunteers did for them. These college students have the time to do 6 weeks of events, and they understand how to keep the competition experience relevant since they understand what it's like to compete as a student.

Dave Verbrugge and Tom Nader do not do 6 events a season in Michigan as an MC/GA duo, but they're still directly responsible for showing me how to make incredible formative experiences for the students at the combined 19 events I've participated in these past two years.

Changing lives as a key volunteer is not a right reserved for the "elite" among us anymore. If you're afraid that someone's going to be "just meh" at scorekeeping more than you're afraid that some kids at an inner city Minneanapolis school won't be able to participate because of the price, then you need to reavaluate why you're even here.

Did the DJ at today's St. Joseph event play smooth jazz dinner music before the final elim match? He sure did and it kinda killed my buzz. Did it stop the students on Stryke Force from making a memory they'll always remember as they won that blue banner? No it sure didn't!

I'm not here for the vibe, I'm here to impact lives.

#BringOutYourDead

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Ryan,
I don't want to blame rural teams, I am just pointing to the issue that some have. That is one or perhaps two mentors working incredibly hard to bring FRC to their small school. I cannot ask a mentor in that situation to volunteer when they are already working harder than I am, to insure their small team has a quality program. My hat is off to those teams and their dedicated mentors.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I'm not so sure that the "rural teams" in Minnesota don't have volunteers to contribute. Being that I'm from one of those rural teams, and I work with many more of them within our local hub, I know they have volunteers to contribute. They just have no incentive to do so right now. Now obviously there are smaller teams out there, and teams that would be incapable of providing volunteers, but there are many more teams out there with enough people to provide many volunteers. I would argue the latter outnumber the former.

When I think "rural" I don't think "Becker." You guys are certainly more rural than New Brighton, but still what I would consider suburban (subrurban-lite?). I don't mean to devalue you or Becker- you guys do some awesome stuff! I just have a slightly different definition that I think will clear up the point on rural teams.

When I talk about rural teams who don't have the resources to provide volunteers, I'm talking about schools like Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig which had an enrollment of 197 in 2014 compared to Becker's ~800. Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig is is in Bena, MN, which has a population of 118 compared to Becker's 4,645.

They actually did have an FRC team from 2010 through 2013. They were one of my favorite teams back when I was an inspector because I could tell how much work they put into getting a viable robot put together and down to the Twin Cities.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Ryan,
I don't want to blame rural teams, I am just pointing to the issue that some have. That is one or perhaps two mentors working incredibly hard to bring FRC to their small school. I cannot ask a mentor in that situation to volunteer when they are already working harder than I am, to insure their small team has a quality program. My hat is off to those teams and their dedicated mentors.

I fully agree. Sorry if I implied that you were "blaming" rural teams. There are teams in Minnesota that can't do anything more than field a semi-functional robot. I have a huge respect for those mentors that make that happen from little to no resources.

I just meant to say that MN FIRST shouldn't let the limits of some teams limit the improvement of the organization as a whole. When districts happen, if there is a volunteer requirement, exceptions will have to be made in the cases of these hard-working, yet small teams.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Tanis

When I think "rural" I don't think "Becker." You guys are certainly more rural than New Brighton, but still what I would consider suburban (subrurban-lite?). I don't mean to devalue you or Becker- you guys do some awesome stuff! I just have a slightly different definition that I think will clear up the point on rural teams.

When I talk about rural teams who don't have the resources to provide volunteers, I'm talking about schools like Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig which had an enrollment of 197 in 2014 compared to Becker's ~800. Bug-O-Nay-Ge-Shig is is in Bena, MN, which has a population of 118 compared to Becker's 4,645.

They actually did have an FRC team from 2010 through 2013. They were one of my favorite teams back when I was an inspector because I could tell how much work they put into getting a viable robot put together and down to the Twin Cities.

In terms of population you have a great point. I don't see your post as devaluing Becker at all! It's kind of cool that we're not looked at as a bunch of people from the sticks

I'm of the mindset that any non-twin cities/Duluth team is rural. Your definition fits the situation far better. I agree that there are rural teams that fit your definition that can't contribute volunteers. DROBA Warriors from Deer River (3036) is an example. They have a graduating class of ~30 people. As I mentioned in my post above, I don't think the number of small teams outweighs the volunteer power of the larger teams in MN. In other words, I think the larger teams can make up the volunteer deficit that the smaller teams will leave.

I'm not sure that my statement is true regionally, especially in northern Minnesota. It'd be very interesting to see some data about the size of teams in Minnesota on a map. It'd provide some nice, positive reinforcement for the "build it and they will come" statement that myself and others have put out there. It might be that there is literally nobody to come, even if the desire is there.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

I'm sorry; I cannot comprehend the concept of "can't contribute volunteers".
Do you have students on your team? Yes. Good; this means you also have at least 1 parent per student. Even if you have 5 students, that's 5 parents! Look; volunteers!!! Like it or not, when the student signs up for robotics, the parent does too.

I've been on a small team (< 15) for many years and currently mentor a big team (> 45) and I have NEVER had a problem finding volunteers from my team. There are just no excuses. I get it; people work. But not everyone works. (Note: hs students can be volunteers too)