Video Review Needs to Happen Now

[Jessica Boucher]

Just a note - this is an perennial tough subject and the conversation is good, but make sure to write it out, breathe, think, and edit appropriately.

If you're interested, theres a few threads in the archives about this subject too.

[James1902]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Here's where I start to get rustled.

A simple overhead view of the field can be used to solve all disputes in FRC.
There is very little room to argue with this. FIRST could implement the system themselves as its not that complicated of a system to put in place.

As to who's video? Obviously the only video that would be reviewed would be from FIRST's own camera system. There would be no 3rd party camera footage viewing allowed, similarly to how things are now.

This isn't sports. In FRC the game pieces are simple, the rules are simple, and the problem is no where as complicated as you think it is.

My perspective: I've been a Head Ref for FTC events for several years now.

A few things:

True overhead camera views (like the one RoboShow set up at the Orlando Regional this year) are only simple if a number of venue conditions are met. It needs to have a convenient catwalk or overhead trusses that you can mount the camera on (usually a decent expectation at a regional, but not in a district event held in a local high school gym, or in a number of other venues that regionals use.) And you need a decent cable to connect it to your switcher that's usually a couple hundred feet long at least. And, of course, it needs to be a fairly high quality camera with either a wide field of view or a decent zoom depending on how close to the field your mount point is.

Even if all of these conditions are met, I wouldn't call the set up "simple".

Also, it's often not the regional that's running the cameras. Usually the video put onto the screen at the event is run by a contractor.

I would love to see every FIRST event with a broadcast that could support such a replay system, but I don't see that happening, especially with the push to go towards lower cost district events in smaller venues.

[Foster]

Dear Patrick

(and Dear Others that think a team got robbed of a victory)

Thanks for posting and a bigger thanks for you volunteering to help out at the next two events. Your help will be deeply appreciated.

Video replay / electronic scoring isn't what you think it is. NASCAR races at ~30 tracks and has spent millions on putting sensors into the tracks to mark the position of the cars. MLB / NFL with their limited number of stadiums has spent millions of dollars along with more millions by FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC/ESPN on video technology to be able to manage video replays.

I'm super pleased that you've decided to dedicate you next two years to doing this work for FIRST and I'm super excited to listen to your announcement on the partner dollars you've signed up to contribute, your new TV funded dollars and how that charging people to come watch the event to also help fund this will work out. Or that you hit Powerball to pay for all of this and are donating the proceeds.

I'm hoping that a referee reaches out to you and has you come stand next to them on the field. One would think, from sitting in the stands, that being a referee is a piece of cake. In reality down on the field it's overly bright, it's noisy, it's a huge amount to watch.

Other than being the Volunteer Coordinator, there is no worse job in FIRST than being a referee. There isn't any upside since you are not getting paid, the pizza was pretty bad (cheese only really?) , and frankly you have a closet full of robot shirts. And I'm calling BS on that "Vertical Stripes are slimming"

Other than you are out there making a difference, making an effort to improve the world. Giving up your only non-replaceable thing in your life, time, to help other people.

To find out that they are ungrateful, condescending, and mocking your efforts to help them.

But, since you've signed up to be one of them at the next two events, I look forward to your post in 4 weeks to see how your world view has changed. Welcome to the world of being a volunteer!

Warmest personal regards,
Foster

(Why yes, that was filled full of snark and sarcasm. Make sure you send me your VIMS number on how many events you are helping at when you send your complaint mail).

[[ Edited to add: So I posted right after the post came up. I type slow and try to proofread, so I'm now number 6 behind an edited post. ]]

[patar8746]

Originally Posted by Foster

Dear Patrick

(and Dear Others that think a team got robbed of a victory)

Thanks for posting and a bigger thanks for you volunteering to help out at the next two events. Your help will be deeply appreciated.

Video replay / electronic scoring isn't what you think it is. NASCAR races at ~30 tracks and has spent millions on putting sensors into the tracks to mark the position of the cars. MLB / NFL with their limited number of stadiums has spent millions of dollars along with more millions by FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC/ESPN on video technology to be able to manage video replays.

I'm super pleased that you've decided to dedicate you next two years to doing this work for FIRST and I'm super excited to listen to your announcement on the partner dollars you've signed up to contribute, your new TV funded dollars and how that charging people to come watch the event to also help fund this will work out. Or that you hit Powerball to pay for all of this and are donating the proceeds.

I'm hoping that a referee reaches out to you and has you come stand next to them on the field. One would think, from sitting in the stands, that being a referee is a piece of cake. In reality down on the field it's overly bright, it's noisy, it's a huge amount to watch.

Other than being the Volunteer Coordinator, there is no worse job in FIRST than being a referee. There isn't any upside since you are not getting paid, the pizza was pretty bad (cheese only really?) , and frankly you have a closet full of robot shirts. And I'm calling BS on that "Vertical Stripes are slimming"

Other than you are out there making a difference, making an effort to improve the world. Giving up your only non-replaceable thing in your life, time, to help other people.

To find out that they are ungrateful, condescending, and mocking your efforts to help them.

But, since you've signed up to be one of them at the next two events, I look forward to your post in 4 weeks to see how your world view has changed. Welcome to the world of being a volunteer!

Warmest personal regards,
Foster

(Why yes, that was filled full of snark and sarcasm. Make sure you send me your VIMS number on how many events you are helping at when you send your complaint mail).

[[ Edited to add: So I posted right after the post came up. I type slow and try to proofread, so I'm now number 6 behind an edited post. ]]

I don't know if you read the edits before noticing themon your edit, but by no means am I trying to discredit referees themselves. I agree that you have it tough, students and mentors alike can be ungrateful at times. However, I have never seen a more respectful approach than the one my students on 395 took to the issue. They did not get nearly as angry as I did, they did not lose their heads, and they did not root against the alliance that advanced to semis. Instead they decided to start making efforts to stop this from happening in future years despite being largely composed of seniors. All FIRST volunteers deserve respect, especially Referees and Judges, but a change to the video policy would be a huge step in the right direction. No teams could feel like they have any right to feel unfairly judged because calls would be right every time, or at least far more often. The students deserve fair play, and the refs deserve respect for their efforts and a way to make sure they can deliver what students ask of them. A video review policy will help both groups get what they deserve. If this still offends you, I don't know what to tell you.

[dradel]

The fact that I have seen more than a handful of crossings not given credit several in auto is garbage. In the heat of a match I could see things being missed, but how does one miss a crossing in auto?

[Tottanka]

A related thread to video reviews this year:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...84#post1555484

[EricH]

I might agree to the use of video replay, on one condition only.

But that one condition will, in all probability, ruin the entire concept for most of the proponents of using replay.

Ready?


You MUST use the video to prove that you LOST a match that you won, as well as the other way around. That is, if video you take shows that the other alliance should have won the match, and they did not, you need to provide that video to the referees and tell them that you should not have won the match.

Anybody got any objections? How about when it's F3 and you just won the regional by a dubious call that should have gone against you?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by EricH

I might agree to the use of video replay, on one condition only.

But that one condition will, in all probability, ruin the entire concept for most of the proponents of using replay.

Ready?


You MUST use the video to prove that you LOST a match that you won, as well as the other way around. That is, if video you take shows that the other alliance should have won the match, and they did not, you need to provide that video to the referees and tell them that you should not have won the match.

Anybody got any objections? How about when it's F3 and you just won the regional by a dubious call that should have gone against you?

It's not video review, but big props to 4342 did something very similar in 2014 at Chestnut Hill. Their alliance was improperly given credit for an autonomous shot they missed in QF1-3, and members of 4342's drive team came to the question box with members of the opposing alliance. As a result, the head ref allowed for a replay of QF1-3, in which 4342's alliance ultimately ended up being eliminated. 4342 being willing to risk their trip to the SFs (thus effectively ending their season) on behalf of getting the call on the field correct was a terrific example of graciousness. I still applaud them for it.

[Lij2015]

The only way for FIRST to accept video evidence is if they provide the video evidence on FIRST owned and operated equipment. I agree that teams can sometimes be cheated out of that, my team was one of them in Semi Final 3 at Virginia 2014 with a 50 pointer that really should've been a 20 pointer.

But with that being said, I do think they should accept video if they are the ones providing it so that it can be unbiased and incorporate all angles and such. From someone who's been there, I feel you.

[patar8746]

I'd actually argue that any video provided should be considered, especially if FIRST's camera(s) can't get a good angle on a situation but outside video can. When clear video can't be provided or the situation for any reason remains impossible to determine one way or another beyond any reasonable doubt, the Referee ruling should stand. Video of an event can't really add bias without showing an incomplete picture thereby making it ambiguous. Therefore I see no reason not to at least allow Referees to consider outside clips.

[MrTechCenter]

I don't think video replay is ever going to work out in FRC, but one aspect I think needs to change is that when teams go to the question box, their concerns should actually be heard. This week I've seen some blatantly wrong calls and also some final scores that were incorrect and teams going to the question box usually got about a one sentence explanation before being waived off.

[Sperkowsky]

EDIT: OP was talking about our alliance did not even know


People who are insulting this guy need to stop.

We had a similar thing happen to us today.

We were 1st pick of Alliance 8 and extremely happy to get into the playoffs.

We went into our first match ready to go the alliance looked really good. We then won our first match Alliance 1 vs 8. We had some issues. To start we as an alliance crossing the ramparts 5 times before they finally got all of the lights off. Apparently there was a short with one of the leds. But, Match 2 is where stuff got bad. We had a decent match except for 2 big things. To start the refs missed a cheval de frise crossing which we verified happened by video causing a net loss of 25pts. They also did not foul an alliance after multiple extended pins and them trying to flip our alliance partner. After the match we went up to the question box to talk to the refs. They ackowleged they should have put heavier fouls on them and talked to the Field Supervisor I believe (Not certain on who exactly). His reply to the situation was "Cool, nothing I am going to do about it"......

We were outraged.

Third match we came out of the gates strong until defense hit. I forget the team # but essentially they tried to tip us twice along with our alliance partner twice. They had both of our robots at 45 degree angles 4 times throughout a match. They then hit our alliance partner while they were attempting to scale on the batter during the last 20 seconds causing their scaling mechanism to be misaligned and cost us the match. We lost our third QF match by 4 pts. One foul and we would have won along with the 10pts for the scale which we should have had.

Overall these "Misses" seem too obvious. We need Better Ref Training along with more refs.

Before anyone signs me up on vims know that I already inspect for FTC and plan on inspecting for FRC. I just became a Deans List finalist and I am going to volunteer at worlds. This is not a matter of me complaining just simply supporting the fact that stuff needs to change.

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Overall these "Misses" seem too obvious. We need Better Ref Training along with more refs.

Originally Posted by EricH

In 2015, and 2014 Week 1, there were 5 refs on the field. One extra was on staff, for a full crew of 6 refs, and during playoffs there could be 6 on the field depending on the head ref. (2014 kept ramping up the ref count, though--went to 6 on-field later in the season, I was on a crew with 8 on-field at one point; CMP had 10 or so I hear.)

This needs to be brought up also. More refs are going to be needed, no matter how this goes.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

People who are insulting this guy need to stop.

We had a similar thing happen to us today.

We were 1st pick of Alliance 8 and extremely happy to get into the playoffs.

We went into our first match ready to go the alliance looked really good. We then won our first match Alliance 1 vs 8. We had some issues. To start we as an alliance crossing the ramparts 5 times before they finally got all of the lights off. Apparently there was a short with one of the leds. But, Match 2 is where stuff got bad. We had a decent match except for 2 big things. To start the refs missed a cheval de frise crossing which we verified happened by video causing a net loss of 25pts. They also did not foul an alliance after multiple extended pins and them trying to flip our alliance partner. After the match we went up to the question box to talk to the refs. They ackowleged they should have put heavier fouls on them and talked to the Field Supervisor I believe (Not certain on who exactly). His reply to the situation was "Cool, nothing I am going to do about it"......

We were outraged.

Third match we came out of the gates strong until defense hit. I forget the team # but essentially they tried to tip us twice along with our alliance partner twice. They had both of our robots at 45 degree angles 4 times throughout a match. They then hit our alliance partner while they were attempting to scale on the batter during the last 20 seconds causing their scaling mechanism to be misaligned and cost us the match. We lost our third QF match by 4 pts. One foul and we would have won along with the 10pts for the scale which we should have had.

Overall these "Misses" seem too obvious. We need Better Ref Training along with more refs.

Before anyone signs me up on vims know that I already inspect for FTC and plan on inspecting for FRC. I just became a Deans List finalist and I am going to volunteer at worlds. This is not a matter of me complaining just simply supporting the fact that stuff needs to change.

The OP was literally talking about your alliance.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

The OP was literally talking about your alliance.

HAHA done....

I skimmed through a bit and saw he was from a different state. Thanks for telling me.