Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Jaci]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

Like it or not, when the student signs up for robotics, the parent does too.

No.

Parents are there to support their child, but don't sign up for the role of what is essentially unpaid work. Students go to FRC to do what THEY want to do, under the guidance of their mentors (the ones who actually sign up for this), their parents shouldn't be roped into doing volunteer work. While some parents are more than happy to volunteer, for others this concept is just simply too far out of reach

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

No, I do not. It's worth noting though that the case where Minnesota goes to districts solo and MSHSL refuses to blend the state tournaments strikes me as less likely than the other two scenarios (if we go to districts with anyone else, we aren't hosting a MN State tournament, it's a district championship for an area that includes MN), unless someone as tactful as I am is handling that discussion (which I would hope wouldn't be the case).

With regards to your last point, you are (partially) correct-- the "what to do with MN State" is a thorny issue within an even thornier issue. My post did not reflect that complexity, and I can definitely see how it comes off as me having little appreciation for the effort that goes into the tournament, or a lack of understanding of the complexities involved in running it (or any event). While it may be true that I do not have the first hand experience of spending years volunteering and building a regional system from scratch, I do have an exceptional amount of respect and appreciation for the people that have made the events that changed my life as a student possible.

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event.

You cannot speak for every team involved. This is true of your team and your area, but it is not universally true. When I was on 2220, the state tournament WAS seen as a glorified offseason event by many of us involved. Heck, I've been vocal in the past about that view point. Since then I've come to appreciate it much more-- making state was HUGE for 2667 last year.

That being said, I can't say that an extra event for ~30 out of 208 teams is nearly as important in my mind as getting EVERY team a second play, and possible triple the matches (without considering extra events like Champs, District Champs, a third play, or elimination matches). Up until this year, 4607 has been in the same 1-regional club as 2667, and I know you guys have been in the same boat of having bad luck ruin your chances of qualifying for Championships. You know how bad it is to be in that position, and, since you've made it to doing two regionals, I assume you know how hard it is to find the funds to do another event.

The MN State Championship, or another regional (heck, as many regionals as you want to add here) are NOT a replacement for a district system. They are part of a system that benefit disproportionately teams that can afford the costs of another regional, or are already performing well enough that they've qualified for Champs (about half of the teams that qualified for MSHSL last year attended Champs in '14 or '15, and an even larger percentage attended two or more "actual" events). It is very difficult for teams to break a cycle of low performance and low funding (which feed into each other). It happens, but it certainly isn't the norm. Adding regionals, a state championship-- they're not solutions to the problem. They're at best band aids on a gaping chest wound of inequity, and at worst, things that can make us complacent.

Towards this end: 8 matches for regionals are only acceptable if we let them be, if we sit back and hope that the people in charge can somehow put the whole world on their shoulders. I know that the broader community can take some of that weight, but we need to actually step up and take it, and be welcomed to do so. It is not the person organizing volunteers who is doing the volunteers a favor by giving them a position-- it is a mutually beneficial relationship that doesn't work to its fullest potential unless both parties are willing to trust the other.

I am extremely proud, happy, excited about the progress robotics programs have made in MN and generally around the world, even since I started competing, but especially from the humble beginnings of FIRST in general. Yet there is so much more yet to be done. So much more we can do, and so much more that we can become. I can see this future in Michigan, I can see it from New England to the Pacific Northwest, and yes, I can see parts of it in Minnesota. But if we cannot take advantage of ALL the resources available to us-- this includes college students, alumni, and, more broadly, people that don't "fit the mold" of being key volunteers-- it is likely too difficult of a future for just a few people to build. FIRST excels at creating a community broader than just grey-haired professionals mentoring white suburban students-- we can leverage that incredible diversity of talent and passion to create a beautiful future for our communities.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

At the Kansas City Regional, they offered 10 plays for 59 teams. Admittedly, the field team had to play through lunch, and they still ended 45 minutes late on Thursday. They were late too on Friday, but not as bad.

A lot of the problem was with the Radio this year. Seems to be worse than last year. Field Reset was only a problem for one or two matches (removing a stuck defense, or repairing the Sally Port), but not a long delay like some Radio delays.

Any thoughts on having Load-in and Pits open on Wednesday around Noon? Practice Rounds could start at 9 am on Thursday, with Qualification Rounds starting at 1:00 pm. RI's and Practice Field would be needed a day early on Wednesday. Everyone else would need to be ready at 9am on Thursday, rather than Noon.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

[Boe]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

No you cannot speak for all teams involved. When I was a student the MN State Championship just another off season for me, compared to the real prize of going to and trying to win at worlds, or even going to IRI. I would much rather go to my first event sit dead on the field during every match and not go to states, if it meant having all issues worked out for our next event and doing well and going to worlds. I have spoken to a number of students who share this same opinion. Perhaps part of the reason I feel this way is that I dont agree with how teams advance to the state championship (I feel it should be your best event or the average of all your events), this comes from my idea of what the goal of the state championship should be which doesn't necessarily align with MN FIRST.

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

Honestly, at this point I'm not sure what the deal is. It seems like everyone is acting according to what they believe to be the program's best interests at heart, but somewhere along the line the community here lost an entire set of people who could have been welcomed into helping FRC in Minnesota move forward, but have instead been pushed away from volunteering (or in some cases even being a part of the program). I know people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN, or to be told that they would not be assigned to a volunteer role because of posts on social media or CD. I know that there are incredibly talented and passionate people who have just flat out given up on volunteering here in Minnesota because they no longer want to deal with the "Minnesota drama."

This is extremely troubling and very disappointing that this is something that happens in Minnesota, though from the way I've heard certain people in MN FIRST talk about districts it is not entirely surprising. During my time in Minnesota I talked to many people mentors and students from large teams, small teams, teams with large budgets, teams with small budgets, ect. and the vast majority of people I talked to were in favor of districts (and 100% of the students were in favor of them, once I explained what they were).

Also the MN-ND-WI-IA region is basically at capacity for how many play spots there are vs how many are desired, if not for the addition of the Iowa regional there would have been a fair number of teams not able to get a second play, which is very discouraging for teams that work hard to fundraise enough for that second play only to find out there isn't a spot for them.

To add on as someone who competed in MN throughout highschool and now attends school in Michigan I can attest to one of the biggest arguments for regionals vs districts arguments.

Venues: While competing at Mariucci or the DECC is awesome and I would argue some of the best venues in FRC they lose some of their charm when your in a giant stadium and there are four dead/broken bots on the field. After volunteering at the Kettering district the I didn't really noticed the smaller and more personal size of the space but it did not detract from the event.

I may post some of my other thoughts on having now experienced a district event after doing for years of regionals if I get some time with all the studying for finals

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

You cannot speak for every team involved. This is true of your team and your area, but it is not universally true. When I was on 2220, the state tournament WAS seen as a glorified offseason event by many of us involved. Heck, I've been vocal in the past about that view point. Since then I've come to appreciate it much more-- making state was HUGE for 2667 last year.

That being said, I can't say that an extra event for ~30 out of 208 teams is nearly as important in my mind as getting EVERY team a second play, and possible triple the matches (without considering extra events like Champs, District Champs, a third play, or elimination matches). Up until this year, 4607 has been in the same 1-regional club as 2667, and I know you guys have been in the same boat of having bad luck ruin your chances of qualifying for Championships. You know how bad it is to be in that position, and, since you've made it to doing two regionals, I assume you know how hard it is to find the funds to do another event.

You are correct Nick - I should not have spoken for all teams in Minnesota. It is just that my team has our sights on the State Tourney every season. This is our main objective. And in the two seasons that we were fortunate enough to qualify - the other teams were all in to win it. A regional win (and it's qualification to the World Champs) is one thing, but to most school-attached teams, a State Tournament berth means much more to the local community.

As for my logic - if the team qualifies for the State Tourney, more than likely the team qualified for the Champs (or had been honored with great awards and finished high in the quals). So I always gear my kids up for a State Berth. Last year was a disappointment as our robot could not connect to FMS for 6 of the matches and browned out in 2. This year was different as we carried our alliance partners in the first day and then had to show our defensive prowess the last day.

I am optimistic that MN can get to Districts soon - and in doing so there should be a way that the 'District Championships' can also double as the MSHSL State Tournament. If this is a non-starter for either organization, then I feel that we will remain as a Regional area for some time - and that is a severe concern for the students and schools involved. At this point, there is little we can do about the problem.

I have been a MSHSL coach in multiple sports for over 10 years - and I know that sometimes the powers that be in that organization can be difficult. However, I am optimistic that with the strong growth of FRC in MN can help to sway some of the officials at the MSHSL office. A great concern for me is that there is no FRC/Robotics representation in the MSHSL office or in the MSHSCA ranks. I am also aware that they (MSHSL) do not want to set a precedent (as they have been sued a few times in the last number of years). This is a warranted concern.

For my part, I have been a coach for most of my adult life - and as much as I would like to think that all adults would look out for the betterment of student achievement, this is not always the case. But in the case of MN FIRST - and all of my dealings with them - they are truly looking out for the betterment of the students and the brand of MN FIRST.

I will end with this - FRC (and the CD Community) is amazing. Here we are debating what is best for the students and the teams. We are not arguing over trivial aspects - we are discussing (passionately) the potential growth problems of an organization that we all love. Where else do you find this type of discussion?

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

As far as Minnesota is concerned:

In NO WAY can the MSHSL League be discounted. They were incredible enough to include FRC as a legitimate organization. I cannot state enough how much respect I have for MN FIRST as well as the MSHSL to make this happen. A third partner in all of this (the UofM) cannot be overlooked as they provide the space and time for the MSHSL FRC Tournament to happen. As we move forward - there must be only ONE state championship, otherwise it will be watered down.

And for those of you that discount the MN State Tourney as a mere off-season event - you are incredibly wrong. I can speak for all the teams involved as they take this event as seriously as any other FRC event. 4607's initial goal every season is the MSHSL Tournament.

In fact, Becker High School takes FRC seriously as it hangs TWO banners for our FRC team in the Gymnasium for our 2013 and 2014 state title runs. The community thinks it is important as well - when you enter Becker via US Hwy 10 you will see FRC 4607 State Champs 2013 hanging proudly on the sign.

When MN FIRST goes districts, the format must be a MSHSL tourney event.

All teams in MN have different goals. Speaking to the captains on 2502 tonight, they would much rather win a regional than win the state championship. Our goal for this season is to make it to Einstein after our fairly good 2015 season (so we would much rather qualify for worlds than play in a offseason event). I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return. I do believe 2502 is a good example of this, they had the highest goal points per match average in FRC for week 1 and showed how dominate they were in eliminations (second highest alliance average for weeks 0.5 and 1 with the help of our great alliance partners 2883 and 5232), but they ended up seeding 31st at the event during qualifications (5172 is another great example of how broken the ranking system was at northern lights due to the lack of qualification matches). I know there is at least some teams in the state that view the state championship as just another offseason event. Not saying either side is right, but I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

All teams in MN have different goals. I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return. I do believe 2502 is a good example of this, they had the highest goal points per match average in FRC for week 1 and showed how dominate they were in eliminations (second highest alliance average for weeks 0.5 and 1 with the help of our great alliance partners 2883 and 5232), but they ended up seeding 31st at the event during qualifications (5172 is another great example of how broken the ranking system was at northern lights due to the lack of qualification matches). I know there is at least some teams in the state that view the state championship as just another offseason event. Not saying either side is right, but I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it out to be. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.

All teams do have different goals. Trying to qualify for State is very important to us. Our school isn't a perennial powerhouse in sports, so bringing home a MSHSL championship gets us noticed. Any recognition we can get from our school to legitimize robotics and put us on a more level playing field with other activities like football is a win to me. We've been fortunate enough to qualify for State every year and we'll continue to try to do that.

I agree the ranking system isn't great, but don't they use a similar structure to the districts? As far as I know your seed doesn't factor into how many points you get to qualify for State. Even your W/L is weighted pretty low compared to how early you get picked and how you perform in eliminations.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

All teams in MN have different goals. You also don’t speak for all the teams in MN.

Duly noted. Second time in fact.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by hutchMN

I also don’t believe the state championship point system is fair. The ranking system in qualification is broken in MN events due to the lack of qualification matches making parts of the state championship’s ranking system broken in return.

Additionally, the 10 points that teams can get just for submitting for Chairman's is overvalued and misguided. By and large, this just incentivizes rushed and sloppy Chairman's submissions.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

I agree the ranking system isn't great, but don't they use a similar structure to the districts? As far as I know your seed doesn't factor into how many points you get to qualify for State. Even your W/L is weighted pretty low compared to how early you get picked and how you perform in eliminations.

The ranking system is essentially the same the district ranking system to my knowledge. The biggest differences are that Chairman's Award winning teams qualify automatically, and only your first event counts.

I'm not sure how I feel about CA winners automatically qualifying... I like that we're rewarding the teams that win the most prestigious award in FIRST, but it doesn't necessarily bring the best teams to the competition. Although if your team is winning CA, you probably have a competitive team anyways, at least that's what I gather by checking out past winners.

I definitely know how I feel about a teams second event not counting. If the goal of the state championship is to have all the best teams in the state competing to figure out the best of the best then you have to count a second regional. You can do an average of the results of the first and second regionals to maintain some parity, but the teams that go to 2 events will get better at their second event.

If the goal of the state championship is anything other than figuring out the best of the best... then don't call it a state championship.

I know this thread is about 8 regional plays being fair or not, but let's be honest, it has evolved into an open discussion about FIRST in Minnesota. A discussion that is important, and should happen.

[Jon Stratis]

Just a few details on the MN State Ranking system. It is based on the district system, with a couple of modifications. To encourage teams to pursue chairman's, points are awarded for that submission. And since most teams in MN only do one event, we just recognize the team's first event for points. This is the same for districts - every team there does two events, so they recognize the first two, even if the team competes every weekend. Details on the system can be found here. Current standings can be found here.

Those details give a maximum number of points in each category:
Qual ranking: 22 points
alliance selection: 16 points
elims performance: 30 points
awards: 5/8 points per award

As for the two teams mentioned... 2502 may have been ranked 31, and there is an issue with good teams occasionally being ranked low, and vice versa. However, in the state rankings, they came out with the third highest total points for the weekend. 5172 was ranked 16th, and came out with the 5th highest total points for the state rankings. So from that perspective, the state rankings seem to be doing what they're supposed to be doing - both of those teams should have no problem getting into States, despite having event rankings lower than they should have been (based on comments here, I really have no idea how high any team should have been at either event).

And while I didn't really see much at Northern Lights, I have to ask - was 2502's ranking caused by bad alliance matchups, or because their strategy (going for high goals) wasn't as effective in earning ranking points as other strategies (such as getting breaches)? How often did they get breaches compared to others, versus capturing the tower? From what i've seen, the dominant strategy during quals is to breach while scoring a few balls, with very few matches resulting in a capture. That extra RP for a breach really helps with the rankings!

[ehochstein]

So you want to move to districts? I do too.

There are a lot of logistical items that have to be done to make that happen, such as a non-profit to run FIRST in MN, volunteer trainings, equipment purchase lists and much more. In fact, I think Nick Aarestad did a good job summarizing a few of the items in this thread from last year. I love seeing all of the offerings for help in this thread with the transition but how do we actually move forward? Contact the people that authorize the change, the Regional Directors for the area. I've listed their contact information below. Every year at Championships, the Regional Directors meet with the FIRST Board to determine goals for the upcoming years. They may set deadlines, team growth goals and other items. Something you could do before championships is let them know you want to help and that you want to transition to districts. It wouldn't hurt to include FRCTeams@FIRSTInspires.org on an email about it as well. I think a good first step would be to request to have an open discussion about Districts and Regionals, whether it be at the Minneapolis events or maybe later in the season at an off-season event.

Regional Director
Susan Lawrence
sklsumgrad@comcast.net

Assistant Regional Director
Ken Rosen
kr71@aol.com

I know there have been discussions going on between High Tech Kids and MN FIRST about combining organizations to have one organization that runs all of the FIRST programs in Minnesota. I would encourage you to offer your support to High Tech Kids as well, as they very well could be running FRC in the future.

Originally Posted by Karthik

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

I agree, I've heard concerns about this as well. I'm always one that advocates for open-door discussion, so I hope everyone in MN feels safe posting their opinions about districts on ChiefDelphi.

[pHolmgren]

As a student on a PNW team, I personally love the district model. Not only does it allow more play time, but also, allows more teams to compete at worlds. In 2014, we wouldn't have qualified without the district model. Overall, there seems to be less stress put on district events making them 100*more fun. All in all, I'm glad we have the district model and I would encourage the rest of FIRST to be part of it.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by ehochstein

So you want to move to districts? I do too.

There are a lot of logistical items that have to be done to make that happen, such as a non-profit to run FIRST in MN, volunteer trainings, equipment purchase lists and much more. In fact, I think Nick Aarestad did a good job summarizing a few of the items in this thread from last year. I love seeing all of the offerings for help in this thread with the transition but how do we actually move forward? Contact the people that authorize the change, the Regional Directors for the area. I've listed their contact information below. Every year at Championships, the Regional Directors meet with the FIRST Board to determine goals for the upcoming years. They may set deadlines, team growth goals and other items. Something you could do before championships is let them know you want to help and that you want to transition to districts. It wouldn't hurt to include FRCTeams@FIRSTInspires.org on an email about it as well. I think a good first step would be to request to have an open discussion about Districts and Regionals, whether it be at the Minneapolis events or maybe later in the season at an off-season event.

Regional Director
Susan Lawrence
sklsumgrad@comcast.net

Assistant Regional Director
Ken Rosen
kr71@aol.com

I know there have been discussions going on between High Tech Kids and MN FIRST about combining organizations to have one organization that runs all of the FIRST programs in Minnesota. I would encourage you to offer your support to High Tech Kids as well, as they very well could be running FRC in the future.



I agree, I've heard concerns about this as well. I'm always one that advocates for open-door discussion, so I hope everyone in MN feels safe posting their opinions about districts on ChiefDelphi.

I am going to talk with my team on Wednesday to see what they say about leading this transition. I think they will be willing to help lead everyone in the transition (at least I am). If they are, we can contact the directors and see what they say and what they may need from us as a community.