Banging the driver station

[Levi Madden]

At Kansas City, the refs said that if your drive station did fall in auto, you could pick it up, without the penalty for crossing the line.

[philso]

Originally Posted by Levi Madden

At Kansas City, the refs said that if your drive station did fall in auto, you could pick it up, without the penalty for crossing the line.

There is no guarantee that you are able to catch your laptop so it does not get damaged and leave your robot unable to compete.

[Sohaib]

It is really simple to secure your driver station. Use the velcro. (hook side on your driver station) This has already been pretty common, but we were surprised to see no other teams were using clamps like we were. If you do go with this approach, make sure your driver station has an SSD, an HDD can be effected by the shock the "castle" wall may receive.

Another option is to use suction cups on the lexan "glass" of the driver station.

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by TDav540

While I don't believe that teams should run into the wall in autonomous, I don't find it a serious enough issue (especially with velcro on the driver station) to warrant a card.

The problem is that I've seen stories where even though the operator consoles were attached with hook and loop tape, the force of a 120-pound robot hitting at 10 mph was still enough to send them flying. That kind of shock force is enough to damage hard drives and jostle hardware connections enough to cause BSODs. Just browse the threads here and you'll see teams that lost expensive laptops that fell down, or lost matches because their laptop was damaged after a hard shock.

Generally speaking the expectation that "it's going to happen" is warranted, for many of the reasons already stated. But look at the goals of auto this year compared to, say, last year. Last year one could certainly expect robots to bump and bang the driver station while trying to get a 3-tote auto stack. But you would not expect, except by freak accident, a robot to aim itself directly at the driver station wall and charge at it. But this year that's exactly what you're supposed to do.

If FIRST's answer going forward is "deal with it" then I would recommend at the very least adding more hook and loop tape to the operator console (not just one strip) or provide other options for mounting, like straps or bolts. They should also provide rookie teams with SSD-based netbooks.

[kmodos]

Originally Posted by AWoL

What other sensors are you going to use to easily get distance information?

Encoders work fine when there is no slippage, however there is quite a bit this year.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

All actions have consequences.

Regardless of intention, if you prevent another team by your direct (including autonomous) actions from playing to their full potential you deserve a penalty.

Not reading the rules and updates and understanding the consequences is also an action with consequences.

While the head referee is the final interpreter of the rules, they cannot change them & are supposed to interpret them as written. There are no rules against hitting the field hard enough to dislodge driver stations. A bit of grey area for egregious or intentionally damaging conduct, but that is a high bar to cross.

Having said that, intentionally ramming the field with the intent of dislodging driver station is certainly against Gracious Professionalism.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by kmodos

Encoders work fine when there is no slippage, however there is quite a bit this year.

We are running our autonomous based on time with adjustments through smart dashboard for the various defenses. We are not using full speed for any of them.

[TDav540]

Originally Posted by GreyingJay

The problem is that I've seen stories where even though the operator consoles were attached with hook and loop tape, the force of a 120-pound robot hitting at 10 mph was still enough to send them flying. That kind of shock force is enough to damage hard drives and jostle hardware connections enough to cause BSODs. Just browse the threads here and you'll see teams that lost expensive laptops that fell down, or lost matches because their laptop was damaged after a hard shock.

Generally speaking the expectation that "it's going to happen" is warranted, for many of the reasons already stated. But look at the goals of auto this year compared to, say, last year. Last year one could certainly expect robots to bump and bang the driver station while trying to get a 3-tote auto stack. But you would not expect, except by freak accident, a robot to aim itself directly at the driver station wall and charge at it. But this year that's exactly what you're supposed to do.

If FIRST's answer going forward is "deal with it" then I would recommend at the very least adding more hook and loop tape to the operator console (not just one strip) or provide other options for mounting, like straps or bolts. They should also provide rookie teams with SSD-based netbooks.

I completely agree with this idea. Having more options to secure the driver station is always a positive.

[ToddF]

As an engineer, I prefer to find a technical solution to the problem, rather than complain about it. Here are some resources to help.

Computer:
http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Ultra-D...ve+shock+mount
Cable strain relief:
https://www.tethertools.com/product-...le-management/

Note that there are 108 square inches of velcro at the drivers station for you to anchor your driver station to the shelf. Using published strength ratings, (http://qualitythread.com/Download/Ve...ty-Tapes-2.pdf) you should have 702 lb force in tension, and 810 lb force in shear to retain your drivers station. I'll suggest, in the kindest way possible, that teams whose drivers stations "fly off" the shelf perhaps aren't taking advantage of what they have been given.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by ToddF

As an engineer, I prefer to find a technical solution to the problem, rather than complain about it. Here are some resources to help.

Computer:
http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Ultra-D...ve+shock+mount
Cable strain relief:
https://www.tethertools.com/product-...le-management/

Note that there are 108 square inches of velcro at the drivers station for you to anchor your driver station to the shelf. Using published strength ratings, (http://qualitythread.com/Download/Ve...ty-Tapes-2.pdf) you should have 702 lb force in tension, and 810 lb force in shear to retain your drivers station. I'll suggest, in the kindest way possible, that teams whose drivers stations "fly off" the shelf perhaps aren't taking advantage of what they have been given.

QFT.

FIRST has stated that impacts with the alliance station (especially during autonomous) WILL occur, and that the Velcro is there FOR THAT REASON.

I do agree that continuous purposeful impacts to the drivers station during teleop can be construed as 'Damage to the field' and penalized that way but teams should plan for some impacts to happen.

[philso]

Originally Posted by ToddF

As an engineer, I prefer to find a technical solution to the problem, rather than complain about it. Here are some resources to help.

Computer:
http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-Ultra-D...ve+shock+mount

The laptop linked is rated for resistance to vibration and temperature (thermal) shock and is not claimed to have resistance to mechanical shock. It probably will be more tolerant to mechanical shock than most laptops.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by rsisk

It seems they would drive into the wall, turn and then shoot a low goal.

Question: Is this just part of the game play we should plan for? Or should this type of game play be made illegal?

I mean from my point of view it doesn't sound like they weren't doing it for the impact, it sounds like it was how they aligned with the goal. It would be one thing if they intentionally kept doing it harder and harder but if the goal is to score then the less time you spend running into walls the better you will do and that at a certain point they will just casually drift into a cool spot and take the shot.

As soon as they are just smashing the wall just for damage thats one thing, but it sounds like they didn't have any bad intent.

[*Rachelle*]

I don't mind the robots hitting the Driver Station Wall too much. We have Velcro on the bottom of the driver station, but I also set my clipboard and the co-driver his Xbox controller up there. My concern is when during Auto the Xbox controller and clipboard fell off and the co-driver and my immediate reflex reaction was to catch it before it hit the ground in order to avoid damage. Now during auto we aren't supposed to cross that plane and especially touch controllers.

I didn't catch if a foul was called, and the match was restarted anyways, but what do you guys think about the foul if it did happen? We put the controller in a different place after that, so is it one of those as long as a ref doesn't see it happening constantly?

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by *Rachelle*

I don't mind the robots hitting the Driver Station Wall too much. We have Velcro on the bottom of the driver station, but I also set my clipboard and the co-driver his Xbox controller up there. My concern is when during Auto the Xbox controller and clipboard fell off and the co-driver and my immediate reflex reaction was to catch it before it hit the ground in order to avoid damage. Now during auto we aren't supposed to cross that plane and especially touch controllers.

I didn't catch if a foul was called, and the match was restarted anyways, but what do you guys think about the foul if it did happen? We put the controller in a different place after that, so is it one of those as long as a ref doesn't see it happening constantly?

They specifically do allow you to touch the operator console for safety purposes (e.g. to rescue it).

[Rangel]

I agree with others that teams should make sure they Velcro down stuff but I also firmly agree that yellow and red cards should be given to teams that repeatedly do it. There is a third of a field worth of error teams can have in their autos so that they don't smack into the wall as hard as they can. Teams need to take responsibility and make sure their auto works without tackling the station. Once or twice fine but the whole regional is unacceptable in my opinion. At that point it is either fully intentional or the team didn't bother or care enough to fix it. A team this week hit the driver station so hard it activated an e-stop and the match had to be replayed. Was that the field's fault or the robot's fault? I'm sure people might answer differently but I completely believe it to be the robot and team's fault.