Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by Karthik

There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, but this comment by Nick is concerning. If the leadership of an organization is threatening volunteers for posting on CD about districts, I think that organization has larger problems than trying to make a switch to districts. Hopefully what Nick is referring to is a small number of isolated incidents as opposed to a concerted effort by a region to stifle open discussion.

I agree, although there are a number of things one gets told not to post on CD. There are several, as a young key volunteer, I've been told "you say nothing on chief" about without even mentioning chief. Obviously I won't say what they are, and the reasons why are sound.

My point here is that organizations labeling certain topics as "don't say on chief" isn't anything new, although I absolutely agree that MN Districts shouldn't be one of those topics, as long as it's discussed fairly and respectfully.

[CJ_Elliott]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Just a few details on the MN State Ranking system. It is based on the district system, with a couple of modifications. To encourage teams to pursue chairman's, points are awarded for that submission. And since most teams in MN only do one event, we just recognize the team's first event for points. This is the same for districts - every team there does two events, so they recognize the first two,

First. Eight matches is not enough to show the quality of a team's robot. Plain and simple. I get that for many teams, one regional is the only 8 matches that they can play all season and I respect the hell out of those teams. State is set up is that a robot can have communications issues that they can't control for the first 7 of the 8 matches they play and not move, and on the 8th match give a show and properly represent their robot. They then can go on and get overlooked and not make it to state even though they could be one of the best robots at the tournament.

Second. People have no opportunity to improve or learn from their mistakes. Last year there were a ton of teams that I saw improve between their first and second regionals. Now this is great for qualifying for worlds. But it isn't helpful at all when it comes to state. I get that everyone is not on the same level and I respect that. But you can't go from 2 totes on the field to 3 stacks of 6 in 8 matches.

Third. We did have some flaws in our strategy when it came down to what our robot did. But I don't think blaming the game is the way to properly approach this. I like this game. If we played the game to score more than the other alliance and overlooked placement, then that's on us even if we didn't catch it.

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Nick,
Do you know of any other sport in Minnesota that has two championships? The State League is not as simple as you like to think.

Al,
Do you know of any other sport in the World that has two championships?

[Crazyaimer]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Peter,
Are you aware of the push to get other regionals in MN.? Are you aware of the demand on volunteers for the existing events? Did you mention the number of teams served in the double Duluth event?

Al,

Please do try and keep things gracious and professional. Now I may be misinterpreting, but please do not be so quick to insult Peter's knowledge. Peter is one of the most knowledgeable people about Minnesota FIRST that I am familiar with, and is more than aware of the concerns listed. Which is likely why he stated that "There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past." These have all been concerns that have been discussed in the past.

I am concerned that comments like yours may be a part of the reason that cadandcookies feels that "people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN." Now I am sure that there are many issues here, but I am sure that we are more than capable of holding a reasonable discussion.

[hutchMN]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

And while I didn't really see much at Northern Lights, I have to ask - was 2502's ranking caused by bad alliance matchups, or because their strategy (going for high goals) wasn't as effective in earning ranking points as other strategies (such as getting breaches)? How often did they get breaches compared to others, versus capturing the tower? From what i've seen, the dominant strategy during quals is to breach while scoring a few balls, with very few matches resulting in a capture. That extra RP for a breach really helps with the rankings!

That’s true, but going for high goals gave us a higher points per match average with leaving easy points for our alliance partners on the table. If we went for the breach every match we would have probably lost 4 matches so the extra ranking points probably would have been a net gain of zero.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Crazyaimer

Al,

Please do try and keep things gracious and professional. Now I may be misinterpreting, but please do not be so quick to insult Peter's knowledge. Peter is one of the most knowledgeable people about Minnesota FIRST that I am familiar with, and is more than aware of the concerns listed. Which is likely why he stated that "There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past." These have all been concerns that have been discussed in the past.

Let's all remember we are in the same game, on the same team just with different opinions on how to "win". We all want to be inspired and to inspire others to be STEM heroes in our world. We're all very passionate people who only want the best.

Originally Posted by Crazyaimer

I am concerned that comments like yours may be a part of the reason that cadandcookies feels that "people who have been called up and told not to post here about districts in MN." Now I am sure that there are many issues here, but I am sure that we are more than capable of holding a reasonable discussion.

Of course there is always drama, of course there are always politics, which does indeed cause people to become afraid and makes it difficult to post. I've posted a lot of controversial statements in the past about districts. I've been asked (via phone call) to stop posting before and that I shouldn't be posting that sort of information in public. I sincerely hope that, that has not happened to anyone else. I still post here because I believe in what I say and I believe in healthy discussion.

[maxnz]

Originally Posted by CJ_Elliott

Do you know of any other sport in the World that has two championships?

Yeah, FRC in 2017

[FrankJ]

[quote=ratdude747;1556840]I agree, although there are a number of things one gets told not to post on CD. There are several, as a young key volunteer, I've been told "you say nothing on chief" about without even mentioning chief. Obviously I won't say what they are, and the reasons why are sound./QUOTE]

I have been volunteering with First for several years now. I have never been told not to comment on CD. I know quite a few senior volunteers and judges that post regularly on CD. Obviously there are subjects where they hold confidential information that they do not comment on. Other areas that would be inappropriate for them to comment on. They also have to be careful that their views are not interpreted to be First official positions. That is far from a general ban.

While this might not be total the other Frank's doing... I have noticed that First has been noticeably more responsive to the Fist communities comments and concerns during his directorship.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

John,
I was far from ungracious. I merely asked if Peter had knowledge of the things I listed. They are important in this discussion and I do have some knowledge of Minnesota events and their future. I do know that FIRST people in Minnesota are working very hard. Their work shows all over the state. Minnesota has more robotics teams than Boys Hockey. In a state that is hockey oriented that is a big whopping win.

[Linkathon1986]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

I'm sorry; I cannot comprehend the concept of "can't contribute volunteers".
Do you have students on your team? Yes. Good; this means you also have at least 1 parent per student. Even if you have 5 students, that's 5 parents! Look; volunteers!!! Like it or not, when the student signs up for robotics, the parent does too.

I'm sorry. I really am. I had no intentions on entering this, but this has been bothering me for a while. I love FIRST. I made a large mistake joining in my sophomore year, and my parents agree. They are extremely proud of me, its easy to tell. But just because they are my parents and proud doesn't mean that they help. Now don't get me wrong. They really want to. They have made our build team dinner once and gone to the Northern Lights regional to cheer us on, but that's only for only about an hour. They simply don't have time. Mom works and is pregnant with twins, expecting at any time, and Dad is stay-at-home. Soon he has to watch three little kids running around as mom goes to work. I understand that this is not the case for everyone, but in today's age, it is a very real thing to be busy with everyday life.

I'm sorry if I come off as rude. I mean this in a polite way, but I am garbage at conveying my words to not sound irritated or offensive. I merely mean that not everyone will have time to volunteer for a FIRST event .

[novamx3]

I must chime in briefly: as the lead mentor for 2502 I must address the message and tone of one of our alumni:

Jon, (and everyone else) Team 2502 absolutely values the MSHSL State tournament and I understand 100% why the system is set up the way it is. Some teams can't afford to attend 2 events... It's completely unfair to give those teams with larger budgets an advantage. I believe that districts would help this problem and make teams better. But I can tell you we were upset when we were "on the bubble" last year and didn't make it to State.

[novamx3]

Also, you are 100% right about the qualification matches... We were lucky that 2883 valued our shooter's accuracy and they did their scouting. We should have adjusted our play in the qualification matches and our drive team is well aware. There is nothing wrong with this game, it was our team's strategy in qualification matches that was lacking.

[FRCTeam3293]

Originally Posted by novamx3

Jon, (and everyone else) Team 2502 absolutely values the MSHSL State tournament and I understand 100% why the system is set up the way it is. Some teams can't afford to attend 2 events... It's completely unfair to give those teams with larger budgets an advantage. I believe that districts would help this problem and make teams better. But I can tell you we were upset when we were "on the bubble" last year and didn't make it to State.

Totally agree. The OtterBots have set the MSHSL States as our goal every year since inception. Very meaningful to us. Looks like we will be on the wrong side of the bubble this year, and disappointed, which speaks to the value of the event to us.

[nfhammes]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

I'm not sure how I feel about CA winners automatically qualifying... I like that we're rewarding the teams that win the most prestigious award in FIRST, but it doesn't necessarily bring the best teams to the competition. Although if your team is winning CA, you probably have a competitive team anyways, at least that's what I gather by checking out past winners.

I definitely know how I feel about a teams second event not counting. If the goal of the state championship is to have all the best teams in the state competing to figure out the best of the best then you have to count a second regional. You can do an average of the results of the first and second regionals to maintain some parity, but the teams that go to 2 events will get better at their second event.

If the goal of the state championship is anything other than figuring out the best of the best... then don't call it a state championship.

I think there's a little nuance you're not bringing out here. If the goal is to have the best teams, teams who win RCA at their first event seems like an excellent way to ensure you get some of them. If the goal is to get the best robots, it obviously misses the mark, but that particular goal seems to do less to inspire kids and be what FIRST is about, that I would ignore it. (Admittedly, I wasn't there last year but...) I would love to see the MSHSL State Championship hand out awards to teams. Maybe they would be similar/the same/analogous to the normal FIRST set, or whittled down to a few important ones due to judging constraints, but I think that would go further in "figuring out the best of the best" in the right ways.

The problem with counting second events or not is fairness. If teams simply got credit for the better of the two events, (or even both events!) that would be obviously unfair in favor of teams with more resources. Averaging the two dampens the effect, and certainly allows a second event to harm teams, but many teams do tend to do better at later events, both through iteration, and sheer student experience, so you're still advantaging teams with more resources. Picking the first event seems to be the closest to rewarding "competitive" teams, while giving all teams a fair opportunity.

And on the topic of you "speaking for all teams" when saying that winning state is a big deal, it obviously isn't all of them, but the last time I was in MN, there were a good number of teams who see Winning State as a big deal, whose relationships with their districts and schools would be improved by winning an MSHSL banner, and would be further legitimized in their community. And I'm not sure those folks are well-represented on CD. I think it's not universal, but should be taken seriously. And MNFIRST knows this, and maintains a positive relationship with the good folks at the MSHSL.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by LFrisk

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

FTA's have FTAA's. LRI's have inspectors. Head Refs have refs. The list goes on, but the point is that every key position has others they work directly with - that's where those volunteers go. If you look at FIRST's list of volunteer positions, you can probably figure it out - most of the positions even tell you the exact experience needed - for example, LRI's require two years of prior experience as inspectors. Head Ref's need to ref for two years. It's spots like that where the whole "if you build it, they will come" thing falls apart - it doesn't matter if we have 200 volunteers show up for every event - if we don't have experienced Ref's, we won't have a Head Ref to run it. That's the issue when people say "we don't have enough key volunteers" - they mean we don't have enough when considering those we currently have and those ready to step up when there's room for more key's.

If anyone is interested in a key position, whether it appears "full" or not, your best bet is to approach someone in that key role or the VC (whom you should know, as you're already volunteering!) and tell them that you're interested. Ask them what you can do to work towards the position and who you should be talking to. I know it hasn't always worked out that way for LRI's in MN (all of the current LRI's, including myself, were asked to step up to fill the need, but one of the ones in training came to us and told us he wants that position when he's ready), but ideally that's how it would work. Then we would have a list of interested people to keep an eye on, and call up when needed. The problem is, we just don't have that many people banging down our doors for these positions!