Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by LFrisk

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

FTA's have FTAA's. LRI's have inspectors. Head Refs have refs. The list goes on, but the point is that every key position has others they work directly with - that's where those volunteers go. If you look at FIRST's list of volunteer positions, you can probably figure it out - most of the positions even tell you the exact experience needed - for example, LRI's require two years of prior experience as inspectors. Head Ref's need to ref for two years. It's spots like that where the whole "if you build it, they will come" thing falls apart - it doesn't matter if we have 200 volunteers show up for every event - if we don't have experienced Ref's, we won't have a Head Ref to run it. That's the issue when people say "we don't have enough key volunteers" - they mean we don't have enough when considering those we currently have and those ready to step up when there's room for more key's.

If anyone is interested in a key position, whether it appears "full" or not, your best bet is to approach someone in that key role or the VC (whom you should know, as you're already volunteering!) and tell them that you're interested. Ask them what you can do to work towards the position and who you should be talking to. I know it hasn't always worked out that way for LRI's in MN (all of the current LRI's, including myself, were asked to step up to fill the need, but one of the ones in training came to us and told us he wants that position when he's ready), but ideally that's how it would work. Then we would have a list of interested people to keep an eye on, and call up when needed. The problem is, we just don't have that many people banging down our doors for these positions!

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

FTA's have FTAA's. LRI's have inspectors. Head Refs have refs. The list goes on, but the point is that every key position has others they work directly with - that's where those volunteers go. If you look at FIRST's list of volunteer positions, you can probably figure it out - most of the positions even tell you the exact experience needed - for example, LRI's require two years of prior experience as inspectors. Head Ref's need to ref for two years. It's spots like that where the whole "if you build it, they will come" thing falls apart - it doesn't matter if we have 200 volunteers show up for every event - if we don't have experienced Ref's, we won't have a Head Ref to run it. That's the issue when people say "we don't have enough key volunteers" - they mean we don't have enough when considering those we currently have and those ready to step up when there's room for more key's.

If anyone is interested in a key position, whether it appears "full" or not, your best bet is to approach someone in that key role or the VC (whom you should know, as you're already volunteering!) and tell them that you're interested. Ask them what you can do to work towards the position and who you should be talking to. I know it hasn't always worked out that way for LRI's in MN (all of the current LRI's, including myself, were asked to step up to fill the need, but one of the ones in training came to us and told us he wants that position when he's ready), but ideally that's how it would work. Then we would have a list of interested people to keep an eye on, and call up when needed. The problem is, we just don't have that many people banging down our doors for these positions!

And to what extent are those positions advertised in MN? Or in other areas for that matter? Has MN taken a proactive stance and put out a plea for these kinds of volunteers and say "if we want to move forward with the district system, we need trainees in these positions, so please volunteer?" In my experience, if you expect people to volunteer on their own to fill the voids, you won't get much. But if you ask them to volunteer and tell them why they are needed, you may get different results. People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer. My other hypothesis is that there would be a number of potential volunteers that would be more likely to do so if the event was closer to them and they didn't have to miss work to do so (like a district event would be).

Again, I'm not from MN so this is just my educated guessing.

[bachster]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

[snip] People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer. [snip]

I think this is definitely a good point, and I'll add my perspective based on my experience. The first 3-4 years I was a mentor, there were a total of 3 adults who attended events with our team. My capacity was fully consumed by making sure the team got to the event and put a robot on the field each match. To be honest, I didn't give much thought to how the event was run or where volunteers came from. If we had been required to provide volunteers I'm not sure what we would have done, and it certainly would have added to my already high stress level. It was only several years later, when we had developed stronger parent support and added several more mentors, that when I saw an email stating "we're looking for technical mentors to be robot inspectors" I thought "you know what, I think I could do that." I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to identify this need on my own - probably several more years.

After becoming more aware of the need for volunteers, our team has made concerted efforts to recruit students, parents, mentors, and alumni as event volunteers, and I'm proud to say that it's become part of our team culture. But, we are now a large team with a strong base of mentors, parents, and alumni to draw from. There are many, many teams in Minnesota that are still in the position I was for my first few years - one or two mentors just trying to stay afloat. This is hard, hard work and I commend them for their efforts.

I guess my point is this: for the teams that have the resources to provide volunteers, awareness is important, and it's not automatic. If you're reading this thread and want to help, this is a great place to start. Spread the word! The more teams who are actively involved in providing volunteers in various roles, the better position we'll be in to take that involvement to the next level required by districts. More geographic diversity in our volunteer base is also important if we want to be able to support districts all over the state.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

This. I couldn't volunteer this year because my team is competing at Iowa and Minneapolis, and I had a test on the Thursday of the Duluth events. If there were more events, particularly if those events were relatively local and I didn't have to miss much/any school, I would gladly volunteer at a couple of events.

I doubt that I am alone in this regard.

[Bryan Herbst]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

In my experience, if you expect people to volunteer on their own to fill the voids, you won't get much. But if you ask them to volunteer and tell them why they are needed, you may get different results. People may not know that these kinds of volunteers are needed or why they are needed, even if it is up on FIRST's website for everyone to see. My hypothesis is that there are a number of people who would put in the time for one of these key positions if they knew how badly they were needed to move forward with districts, or even what the volunteers do. I'm sure we have many parents/mentors on our team who are clueless about where their abilities could be useful as an event volunteer.

Our regional director sent out an email yesterday to all team contacts requesting the following:

10,000 Lakes
Field Reset (7)
Flag assistants (2)
Safety Advisor (1)
Safety Glasses: Friday and Saturday
Spare Parts Desk (2)

North Star:
Welcome Table/Event Concierge (2)
Team Queuing (1)
Saturday - Safety Glasses attendants
Practice Field (1)

Volunteering for one of these positions is the first step towards many other positions.

Additionally, he sent out the following to all team contacts in December:

Technical Volunteers Wanted!

Volunteering is a blast at Minnesota FIRST Regional Competitions. Positions that require pre-event training are filling now, including Scorekeeper, Control System Advisor and Robot Inspector, for all four events. Events require a minimum of 10 robot inspectors, 2 CSAs, and 2 Scorekeepers. Sign up today via FIRST and the VIMS: https://my.firstinspires.org/FIRSTPo...IMS_Login.aspx. Questions can be sent to Laurie Shimizu, FIRST Senior Mentor & Volunteer Coordinator, at lshimizu@firstinspires.org.

No one is trying to keep volunteering a secret.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

This. I couldn't volunteer this year because my team is competing at Iowa and Minneapolis, and I had a test on the Thursday of the Duluth events. If there were more events, particularly if those events were relatively local and I didn't have to miss much/any school, I would gladly volunteer at a couple of events.

I doubt that I am alone in this regard.

While team dynamics and needs will vary, I have volunteered during the events that my team participated in pretty much every year since 2009. If you have enough mentors attending the regional, some of them can volunteer. Volunteering at the event is a great way to model for your students the importance of volunteering to give back.

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

Robot Inspector in particular, which Caleb has done before, is primarily needed on Thursday. I know both events in Minneapolis are at the minimum of 10 robot Inspectors at last check.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

Robot Inspector in particular, which Caleb has done before, is primarily needed on Thursday. I know both events in Minneapolis are at the minimum of 10 robot Inspectors at last check.

Yes the need for inspectors is greatest on Thur for Regionals or load in night for District events. So it is certainly possible and highly desired to have people who are interested in doing Robot inspection on that day and then have the rest of the time free or do another job.

For example one of the RIs for my event this weekend will be queing after Thur night inspections, I've also had people who inspect load in and are then refs the other days.

[Caleb Sykes]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

While team dynamics and needs will vary, I have volunteered during the events that my team participated in pretty much every year since 2009. If you have enough mentors attending the regional, some of them can volunteer. Volunteering at the event is a great way to model for your students the importance of volunteering to give back.

Also, you don't have to volunteer for the entire weekend, you can volunteer for only the days where you are available, although this may limit the positions you are eligible or selected for.

One of our mentors will be volunteering at Iowa and 10K, and I would volunteer at our competitions as well if I thought that was the best usage of my time.

I understand that there are opportunities for me to volunteer in the regional system, but there are clearly vastly more readily available opportunities in the district system.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes

One of our mentors will be volunteering at Iowa and 10K, and I would volunteer at our competitions as well if I thought that was the best usage of my time.

I understand that there are opportunities for me to volunteer in the regional system, but there are clearly vastly more readily available opportunities in the district system.

I completely sympathize with this post. There's a really interesting amount of calculation that goes into whether it's "worth" volunteering at an event-- part of that comes down to what you're doing (for example, I feel like I'm making much more of an impact as a CSA/FTA/emcee when I do FTC events than I do doing field reset at FRC, which makes me far more excited/willing to volunteer over working with my FTC team), how much the team needs you (at North Star, I'll be the mentor for 2667 that has the most FRC experience at the event, which is terrifying, especially for nearly a 10 year old team), and of course work/schedule conflicts.

Truthfully, I'd much rather be in a position to volunteer at North Star (and any event) than not, even if it means I'm just sitting at the safety glasses table. But there's definitely a hard call that needs to be made between that idealism and the reality that I'm probably helping more by making sure my team is running smoothly. I think that a lot of teams have mentors who have to make that call and, rightfully, pick their teams. This comes back to the main point of this thread-- by my count (which might be slightly off-- I did this manually) 166 MN teams are going to one regional event. The majority will not make elims, or qualify for Champs, or qualify for State. Those teams get EIGHT matches. So yeah, when it comes down to it, evaluating cost/benefit for taking one of the incredibly appealing roles Bryan posted as being open as a mentor, it's an obvious choice if you're not from a large team. For a lot of people helping their team and volunteering are mutually exclusive, and this is exacerbated by having double regionals (which shouldn't be misconstrued-- I love our events, it just makes volunteering at more than one other event difficult).

That situation changes when a team can attend more events, events within a reasonable distance are more common, events require less of a time commitment, or a team gets large/good enough that it can afford to lose a couple of mentors for a weekend (yes, this is probably an oversimplification, but I think it covers the main things).

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Sorry I haven't posted much here, out of the country at the Australian event. There seems to be a lot of conjecture on what actually takes place at an event and how volunteers are recruited and trained. If you really want to know ask. We have done a lot of training to get inspectors in Minnesota, and other positions as well, up to speed. Yes, the robot inspections on Thursday take a lot of effort, but that is not the only need. Events run better when inspection staff assist teams with robot problems and redesign throughout the weekend at any event. I want our inspectors to insure that all teams play every match to give the remaining teams a full alliance every time. That is a lot to ask but that is why we look for inspectors to be team members who actively have worked on a robot prior to volunteering. I want experienced people. Having worked in Minnesota since the beginning, I can tell you that there are some really great and knowledgeable people who work those events. Great refs, CSAs, FTAs and inspectors. It is actually pleasant to work in MN events as everyone is professional and very nice.
That being said, almost every event (not only MN) will have inspectors go to other roles, most often reffing and judging. CSAs and other volunteers will stick with their roles throughout the event but game dependent roles like field reset can have significant demands. Building a field can take most of a day or longer depending on the field and the venue. This year can take easily 20 people to unpack and setup and a similar number for teardown. Then there is the pit setup and teardown, volunteer check in, judges and a lot of other positions.
Six minute matches? I think you need to take a hard look at the last two year's games and you will soon realize that two minutes is an awful long time for the game and robots. Many teams do not design efficient mechanisms and will often run a battery down in just two minutes.

[mrnoble]

The worst thing about a six minute match would be the pain and humiliation of having your team's non-functioning robot on the field for that length of time. The second worst thing would would be the audience boredom that would come as we had to sit through six minutes of non-functional robots on the field. So, no thanks.

[Ilovepineapples]

I highly doubt MN will go to districts, the leadership of the state doesn't seem to like the idea. My guess is that they'll continue to add regionals in the larger areas out-state, such as Rochester, St. Cloud, La Crosse/La Crescent, Fargo and Thief River Falls. Followed by MN teams and sponsors complaining about the cost per regional match vs. district match. That will force them to try to reduce costs for teams, which could be done the following ways;

• Finding additional sponsor money so all teams can afford a second regional. This is doubtful, as there are only so many large companies in Minnesota.
• Negotiating a reduction in cost for teams attending a regional, to align more with districts. This would be complex, as it would have to go through FIRST and it would affect all areas with regionals. My assumption is that FIRST wants all areas to move to districts and Israel/Austraila would have issues with this as they are single regional countries, making transportation to a second regional uneconomical.
• Moving to districts. From the posts on ChiefDelphi, this seems highly unlikely.

Overall, it seems that things will continue how they have been in Minnesota with an increase in the overall number of regionals. Perhaps with more regionals, team counts at the event will go down and this will allow for more matches. Only time will tell.

[dag0620]

Here is one thing to realize. Local leadership fighting districts will certainly delay the switch, but if HQ wishes for it to happen, sooner or later it will.